The Official 4300 Brushless/LiPo/Foam Touring Thread
11-04-2006, 07:10 AM
#106
Originally Posted by CRASH
Adam,
Aren't you suppose to be getting married right about now?
Congrats and best of luck to you and your family this weekend and we will see you when you get back from your honeymoon.
Later,
Aren't you suppose to be getting married right about now?
Congrats and best of luck to you and your family this weekend and we will see you when you get back from your honeymoon.
Later,
11-05-2006, 10:34 PM
#108
Here's an interesting question. Wonder why my motor ran hot for a round and then was cool again the rest of the night? Only thing I can figure is setup must have been an issue as I was all over the place.???
Also, I wonder if anyone has an experience running the "upgraded" rotor?
I haven't seen any info or comparision on it. Just wondering.....
Also, I wonder if anyone has an experience running the "upgraded" rotor?
I haven't seen any info or comparision on it. Just wondering.....
11-06-2006, 05:21 PM
#109
The air gap does have something to do with some of the heating I"m sure, but not all of it. The advantage of the Sintered doesn't come from the size, it's from the materials.
Tuning Tuning Tuning. I'm sure at one stage someone will come along and offer different "parts". That would like someone offering a different arm, or a different can now. It's okay, you can do it, but it's not technically legal. Some places this is a non issue though.
So yeah, one day I hope there is a big aftermarket following of parts and support items for BL. It's good for competition and makes the big manufactures work their butts off to stay on top of the game. How realistic this will be I don't know.
The idea of "tear down" BL motors is great, I'm sure winders will think they can make them better one way or the other. But we've spent a lot of time and effort to make sure "we're" doing it the best... But there is a lot more to winding and producing a BL motor then there is to a regular motor.
Just the machine we use for Timing the motors accurately is kind of out of hand.
In the oval scene, there are a bunch of guys that run better bearings in the motors, and find lubes that are "magic" if you will. This is just the beginning of it. I can see later on guys zapping rotors, and balancing shafts to the umpteenth percentage of 0.0000. All of this is something that "will" happen. We're racing here, and if the rules don't say you can't do it, someone will.
I don't think it's really all that realistic for aftermarket "rotors" though. In order to make them competive price wise, you have to deal in some pretty big quantity. As it stands right now, BL motor Rotors are not interchangable between different manufactures. They can be "made" to be, but still, you'll be cornering yourself to one brand. It's difficult for a manufacture to do that. What if we change our basic motor design just after this guy goes out and orders a 1000 of them? We've no plans to, but how does Super BL Aftermarket Motor company know that?
Even now, the biggest advantage to your motor is a good handling car, and the proper trigger finger for the race. That is by far the biggest tunning tool of any motor program. Make the work for the motor easier.
What we've found in all our testing and monkeying with timing is this: The motor only makes so much power. Move the timing, you move where the power is, not how much there is.
That's it. No tricks, no magic, just the plain old physics of it all.
Its by no means the same as BR motors, they are a different animal with a different set of rules.
From my experience working with all our team drivers, and "Racing Customers" at big events, I've encountered very very few situations that we were looking for "more" power. Typically they wanted less power. In many cases we loaned out slower motors to use.
Thanks for listening
Charlie
Tuning Tuning Tuning. I'm sure at one stage someone will come along and offer different "parts". That would like someone offering a different arm, or a different can now. It's okay, you can do it, but it's not technically legal. Some places this is a non issue though.
So yeah, one day I hope there is a big aftermarket following of parts and support items for BL. It's good for competition and makes the big manufactures work their butts off to stay on top of the game. How realistic this will be I don't know.
The idea of "tear down" BL motors is great, I'm sure winders will think they can make them better one way or the other. But we've spent a lot of time and effort to make sure "we're" doing it the best...
But there is a lot more to winding and producing a BL motor then there is to a regular motor. Just the machine we use for Timing the motors accurately is kind of out of hand.
In the oval scene, there are a bunch of guys that run better bearings in the motors, and find lubes that are "magic" if you will. This is just the beginning of it. I can see later on guys zapping rotors, and balancing shafts to the umpteenth percentage of 0.0000. All of this is something that "will" happen. We're racing here, and if the rules don't say you can't do it, someone will.
I don't think it's really all that realistic for aftermarket "rotors" though. In order to make them competive price wise, you have to deal in some pretty big quantity. As it stands right now, BL motor Rotors are not interchangable between different manufactures. They can be "made" to be, but still, you'll be cornering yourself to one brand. It's difficult for a manufacture to do that. What if we change our basic motor design just after this guy goes out and orders a 1000 of them? We've no plans to, but how does Super BL Aftermarket Motor company know that?
Even now, the biggest advantage to your motor is a good handling car, and the proper trigger finger for the race. That is by far the biggest tunning tool of any motor program. Make the work for the motor easier.
What we've found in all our testing and monkeying with timing is this: The motor only makes so much power. Move the timing, you move where the power is, not how much there is.
That's it. No tricks, no magic, just the plain old physics of it all.
Its by no means the same as BR motors, they are a different animal with a different set of rules.
From my experience working with all our team drivers, and "Racing Customers" at big events, I've encountered very very few situations that we were looking for "more" power. Typically they wanted less power. In many cases we loaned out slower motors to use.
Thanks for listening
Charlie
11-07-2006, 12:34 AM
#110
Charlie is there any maintenance we should do to keep these brushless motors from glitching or any thing? I mean Like it appears theres nothing to even clean except the bearings. If that dosent Reel you into brushless nothing will.
It appears were heading aside from mod ,towards a motor limit per class? Kinda like reedy vs. trinity or greenmachine vs p2k pro. HUH? I for one think its great I like a choice. The only thing you all have to do now is zero in on how to keep it close. IT sounds like a hand shake class and a open limit class. WOW figure that out. Hey thanks I'm learning alot it makes me feel like a pro with factory support. Appreciate it.
It appears were heading aside from mod ,towards a motor limit per class? Kinda like reedy vs. trinity or greenmachine vs p2k pro. HUH? I for one think its great I like a choice. The only thing you all have to do now is zero in on how to keep it close. IT sounds like a hand shake class and a open limit class. WOW figure that out. Hey thanks I'm learning alot it makes me feel like a pro with factory support. Appreciate it.
Last edited by UN4RACING; 11-07-2006 at 01:04 AM.
11-07-2006, 10:53 AM
#112
Wow, Charlie, thank you for sharing that. I think that may have been the single most informative post I've read about brushless yet. It's a very interesting glimpse into the future.
What kind of "special" bearings, are they just ceramics?
I noticed that one of the other organizations approved sintered rotors and delta windings. How will delta winding affect brushless motors? Is is something you guys will investigate as it becomes legal? Will is deprecate your existing line of motors if you do change?
Even with the tuning possibilities, it seems like the gains will be very limited, and as you said, the real advantage will be in driving and car setup. Plus, the tuning options you've mentioned seem a whole lot more attainable to the average person than the black magic currently required to make brushed motors perform at their best.
What kind of "special" bearings, are they just ceramics?
I noticed that one of the other organizations approved sintered rotors and delta windings. How will delta winding affect brushless motors? Is is something you guys will investigate as it becomes legal? Will is deprecate your existing line of motors if you do change?
Even with the tuning possibilities, it seems like the gains will be very limited, and as you said, the real advantage will be in driving and car setup. Plus, the tuning options you've mentioned seem a whole lot more attainable to the average person than the black magic currently required to make brushed motors perform at their best.
11-07-2006, 05:50 PM
#113
Even with the tuning possibilities, it seems like the gains will be very limited, and as you said, the real advantage will be in driving and car setup. Plus, the tuning options you've mentioned seem a whole lot more attainable to the average person than the black magic currently required to make brushed motors perform at their best.
EXACTLY. WHen it does come out, it will be inside EVERY single ESC sold. Done. Man, I love that one.
Maintenance is low key to say the least, just blow out the dirt and clean the bearings. From what I've heard the are using ceramic bearings. Don't use motor spray on the motor itself though. Just air and a small brush. WHen you take out the rotor, put it IMEDIATELY into a brand new plastic bag. They suck up EVERYTHING even a little bit metal.
See you tomorrow!
EXACTLY. WHen it does come out, it will be inside EVERY single ESC sold. Done. Man, I love that one.
Maintenance is low key to say the least, just blow out the dirt and clean the bearings. From what I've heard the are using ceramic bearings. Don't use motor spray on the motor itself though. Just air and a small brush. WHen you take out the rotor, put it IMEDIATELY into a brand new plastic bag. They suck up EVERYTHING even a little bit metal.
See you tomorrow!
11-07-2006, 10:02 PM
#114
Originally Posted by Charlie
EXACTLY. WHen it does come out, it will be inside EVERY single ESC sold. Done. Man, I love that one.
Thanks for all the input Charlie.
Lastly, what size bearings will we need to switch to Ceramic? (4300 w/ sintered)
11-08-2006, 07:27 AM
#115
Clean my motor out? Brilliant!
That's about as technical as I get on electric motors. Sure is good reading though.
That's about as technical as I get on electric motors. Sure is good reading though.
11-08-2006, 10:15 AM
#117
Charlie,
We've noticed that some of the 4300's are now shipping with the updated solder tabs. Is it true that the motors needs to be timed different in order to use the new tabs? If so, is there any chance these would perform differently? We've had a couple of guys say they're slower, and I'm just wondering if they need to gear them appropriately for that motor's power band, which may be different than those with the old solder tabs.
Did you guys ever imagine a whole class would be built around your 4300 motor? Seems like it happened because that was the slowest motor available for 4 years, and now, even though the 13.5 is available, the 4300 class has got enough momentum to keep going. Perhaps this will be the brushless 19T of the future. With that in mind, do you think there's a chance of releasing an updated version of the 4300? As it stands right now, it costs over $100 to get one outfitted with a new endbell and sintered rotor, making it the most expensive motor you guys make. It seems like an updated version would go a long way toward easing the pain of transitioning into 4300 racing. If nothing else, because the sintered rotor's ease of use/maintenance/longevity compared to the SS rotor.
We've noticed that some of the 4300's are now shipping with the updated solder tabs. Is it true that the motors needs to be timed different in order to use the new tabs? If so, is there any chance these would perform differently? We've had a couple of guys say they're slower, and I'm just wondering if they need to gear them appropriately for that motor's power band, which may be different than those with the old solder tabs.
Did you guys ever imagine a whole class would be built around your 4300 motor? Seems like it happened because that was the slowest motor available for 4 years, and now, even though the 13.5 is available, the 4300 class has got enough momentum to keep going. Perhaps this will be the brushless 19T of the future. With that in mind, do you think there's a chance of releasing an updated version of the 4300? As it stands right now, it costs over $100 to get one outfitted with a new endbell and sintered rotor, making it the most expensive motor you guys make. It seems like an updated version would go a long way toward easing the pain of transitioning into 4300 racing. If nothing else, because the sintered rotor's ease of use/maintenance/longevity compared to the SS rotor.
11-08-2006, 10:57 AM
#118
good question... At my LHS every novak brushless costs $80. Add the sintered Rotor $30 and the endbell is $20. You are looking at a very expensive motor. We need an already pimped out version (I would be happy to pay about $10 extra for it lets say $90 
)
)
11-08-2006, 09:20 PM
#119
i have the same question as Adam concerning the 4300
i feel as a minimum the 4300 should have at least the same upgrades that the 13.5 motor has at the same cost. as for adding items BRL 4300 class allows, which makes the 4300 more expensive than MOD BL motor... maybe leave that to the racer who wants to pimp a 4300 to that level.
CVT01
i have seen the 3.5R thru 7.5R for $80 and the 13.5 for $77. the 4300 i have seen for $55-60. i hope you don't have to pay $80 for a 4300 and then pay $30 for the upgrade just so it has the same rotor, large bearing, endbell as the 13.5? plus $30 sintered arm, maybe $20 ribbed endbell, etc. etc.
which that makes me bring up another point when it comes to the 3.5R thru 7.5R motors. all the same price...currently only the 3.5R has the sintered rotor. will there be a fade in for the other Velociti series motors?
i feel as a minimum the 4300 should have at least the same upgrades that the 13.5 motor has at the same cost. as for adding items BRL 4300 class allows, which makes the 4300 more expensive than MOD BL motor... maybe leave that to the racer who wants to pimp a 4300 to that level.
CVT01
i have seen the 3.5R thru 7.5R for $80 and the 13.5 for $77. the 4300 i have seen for $55-60. i hope you don't have to pay $80 for a 4300 and then pay $30 for the upgrade just so it has the same rotor, large bearing, endbell as the 13.5? plus $30 sintered arm, maybe $20 ribbed endbell, etc. etc.
which that makes me bring up another point when it comes to the 3.5R thru 7.5R motors. all the same price...currently only the 3.5R has the sintered rotor. will there be a fade in for the other Velociti series motors?
