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Old 11-01-2006, 06:44 AM   #61
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Morning. Now that I have had time to recharge my brain and cycle my thoughts. Heres something to think about. In the world of inovation we have to keep the door to progress wide open. If we dont, the other manufactureers wont be able to get in on the action. Novak will rule. I Mean In modified it dosent matter. Right now the only tunability is the rotor. Leave a rotor tunability in there and now you have a choice per track lay out. That said. I run a fk05 Its got alot of tunability some have more. I choose the fk05. I like my 4300 dont get me wrong out there. I'm just saying If someone came out with an aproved that had a Wickid looking X on it I would buy it. Now I'm going to finish my cup of shock oil.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:22 AM   #62
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highflyer - here's a link to info on the rotors <click>

As stated, ask any questions you'd like. We're all learning but have compiled a bunch of good info.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:25 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highflyer
Guys, mind sharing what's a sintered rotors? Any pics ?
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXNLZ1&P=7

Essentially, it's a different way of making magnets that's much more resistant to the effects of heat. It's also nickel-plated which helps with, well, I'm not sure exactly. Since the magnets are stronger, the rotor overall is smaller, allowing for a larger air gap in the can. I believe that helps with cooling and possibly with torque.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:29 AM   #64
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Quote:
I just wanted to say my hats off to you guys on this thread for organizing yourselves and finding a solution that seems to be working excellent for your local racing scenes.
Thanks Mr Black.... I think it is really a no brainer. Big races are nice and good money makers but if things aren't done for the local scenes there isn't a local scene. So I think it is a mistake for track directors to stick there head in a rule book. Give the people what they want, have fun and race!

One thing I don't understand is why other brushless companies aren't following Novak with the motors. This thread is about brushless but the classes we are talking about are 4300's. There are no other options I know of although I think Castle has one close. Also the 13.5 I think is going to be big come next winter. Ok so ROAR allows brushless in MOD so I can see all the different variations there. Seems to me there are a lot more racers out there wanting brushless that will never run MOD but have only one option... Novak. I'm not trying to get in any companies business but Oval has really embraced the 13.5 and 4300 and on road is working its way there. Kinda surprised someone else hasn't tried to jump in on the ground floor with Novak.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:36 AM   #65
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People seem really quick to try and force brushless into mod. That's great, except a vast majority of racers around the country don't race mod, and can't handle the speeds. That's why stock is king in the clubs, and there's no reason we shouldn't have alternatives there. The 13.5 is a thing of beauty for that reason.

I think the 4300 caught on because it was the only motor that most people could handle in the clubs, and it was the first I think. Had the 13.5 been around sooner, you probably would see more classes built around it rather than the 4300. Still, the 4300 is a nice motor, and a nice speed/performance compromise for people that find stock a little boring. I too am surprised nobody else has bothered to make a 10.5 turn brushless motor, but I guess the big market for brushless is still in mod since it's not widely embraced in club (stock) racing yet. That's changing, thankfully.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:39 AM   #66
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Ok just thought of a situation we ran into with thermalling. If you are pushing the limit temp wise of your system and switch to a better battery. Say for instance 3800's to 4200 SHV.. you can pretty much guarantee a thermal. This has happened to a few guys in Omaha. As far as Lipo you will have the same problem because of the efficiency of the battery. I was running 3300's and my temps were fine 135-145 for both the speed control and motor (no fans, stock rotor). I put in my Lipo and BAM!! Temp on the speed control was 180+ when I temped it after the race. Motor temp didn't change. So I put a fan on the speed control and next race the SS temp was 118. No problems since with temp. I guess my main point is if you are going to push the limit of temperature you may get bit by something as simple as a battery change or hitting a couple extra boards. Keep your temp reasonable and you'll be fine.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:40 AM   #67
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The interesting thing about 4300 racing is that it's a class dedicated to a brushless motor. Unlike the 13.5 that's intended for use with stock brushed motors, the 4300 is its own class, and we're all running essentially the exact same motor. That's nice for parity, and it's also nice because it's driving us to discover new things about these motors, and how to get the most out of them rather than just throwing in more motor (like in mod).

I suppose this is how motor tuning gets started, but we're also learning a lot about them in the process. It's neat, because it feels like we're pioneers in some ways. I know the oval guys have a leg up on us, but nobody there is talking, and I'm not sure how much testing they've done.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:45 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padailey
Ok just thought of a situation we ran into with thermalling. If you are pushing the limit temp wise of your system and switch to a better battery. Say for instance 3800's to 4200 SHV.. you can pretty much guarantee a thermal. This has happened to a few guys in Omaha. As far as Lipo you will have the same problem because of the efficiency of the battery. I was running 3300's and my temps were fine 135-145 for both the speed control and motor (no fans, stock rotor). I put in my Lipo and BAM!! Temp on the speed control was 180+ when I temped it after the race. Motor temp didn't change. So I put a fan on the speed control and next race the SS temp was 118. No problems since with temp. I guess my main point is if you are going to push the limit of temperature you may get bit by something as simple as a battery change or hitting a couple extra boards. Keep your temp reasonable and you'll be fine.
Yea, we noticed that too with the improved voltage of LiPo over our busted old 3800's. The increased voltage changes the power band of the motor, so we had to gear a little bit differently to keep from overheating them. With the sintered rotor, we just had to gear differently to get the right "feel" back, since it's seemingly impossible to overheat the sintered in a 4300.

And like you said, driving style (and how clean you are) is really a factor too. Some guys do great with a 28.5 rollout while others thermal half way through the race. I think there's also the factor of rotor age as it loses some magnetic strength.

The reality is, we're all going to gear these motors on the very edge of their abilities because if we don't, someone else that does is going to be much faster than we are. That's how racing works, so rather than complain about it, we have to find a way to make it work. The stock rotor was probably never meant to be geared where we're putting it, but that's where it's fast, and that's where it's going to stay in competitive racing. It's really the exact same thing that got us into trouble with stock motors, and why people have to rebrush so often. That's why I'm such a big fan of the sintered rotor, because it really does seem to eliminate this factor. That SS rotor is bad for brushless racing.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:46 AM   #69
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I agree Syndrome... the money must be in MOD. I don't understand that but I'm sure companys aren't sitting around saying "Gee that looks like a great market but lets just leave it for someone else." I hope that changes soon.. lets get some competition for my money!
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:48 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padailey
One thing I don't understand is why other brushless companies aren't following Novak with the motors.
Thank you for the kind words everyone, drivers like yourselves are the most important component in R/C racing more so then the pro's or the companies neither of which would exist without the foundation you provide.

I can assure you there are several including ourselves that understand the need to provide other speeds besides mod for brushless. I know many people are getting tired of hearing about the Orion Brushless motor coming one day but I assure you we are definately getting close. We will definately be addressing the needs of amatuer racers and as I have more info I will post it here. Just a note ironically about 4-5 years ago Novak released a Li-Ion battery and we released a Brushless system for 1:10 but at the time our ESC was not very small and Novak had some things happen with there product also people here in the US were just not ready yet. I think know everyone is very ready to embrace brushless/Li-Po and we are proud to be a part of the next step.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:52 AM   #71
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It's good to hear other manufacturers are getting in on this, and addressing the needs of racers that can't handle or don't want the rigors of mod racing.

It's too bad several manufacturers can't get on the same page for a slower motor, because there's very obviously the desire to create a class around brushless motors. Novak has blazed the trail by being first, but that's not necessarily the right thing for racing overall. We've got a couple of guys locally that CAN'T participate in our 4300 class because they're sponsored by a competitor of Novak.
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Old 11-01-2006, 11:01 AM   #72
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Cool Mr Black... looking forward to seeing what Orion comes out with!


Syndrome... I kinda have to laugh about pushing the limit of gearing... not at you but at that thought. Always seems to be the answer for faster is grab a bigger gear. We know that isn't always "the answer" to faster laps but it seems like everyone tries it. With my setup and driving style if I gear up anymore on our layout I will never hit top speed... so there isn't any sense going with a bigger gear. Of course that is my case I can't drive as agressively as others so heat isn't a problem for me. Slower is Faster definitely works for me... its just so dang hard to slow down when the adrenaline gets pumping!
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Old 11-01-2006, 11:05 AM   #73
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There's also a need for me to mention that some of the bigger companies may not have an interest in targeting the stock or 19t racer with a brushless replacement.

Unfortunately, its not in their best interest to do so. They sell ALOT of stock and 19t motors. I personally have owned 100 or so over the years, (ouch! thats like $3600.00!!!!) and knowing that syndr0me has been running the same motor for a year, A YEAR!, has to be a bit unsettling for the motor guys.

That said, the Reedy guys should be all over this. They have the equipment, they have proven it works reliably (except for that little rotor incident) and the don't currently offer a brushed stock motor, or at least one anyone is using. So where is it Mikey???

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Old 11-01-2006, 11:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padailey
Thanks Mr Black.... I think it is really a no brainer. Big races are nice and good money makers but if things aren't done for the local scenes there isn't a local scene. So I think it is a mistake for track directors to stick there head in a rule book. Give the people what they want, have fun and race!
This is a very important point.Rules should be boundries,not ultimatums.When the rules say only this you eliminate the possibility of using something else that may be better for everyone,or no different at all.This experiment has shown that very different combinations can be run together,and competitively over the period of a whole race at the club level .At the national level where mains are separated by hundreths the differences would be significant,but at the club level there is no reason to exclude so many things that racers may already have,or want to use.Most of the rules we race under are really bad,and counterproductive to maintaining vital local,hobby race programs.It takes effort and thought to organize,and maintain a good class structure that provides fun competitive racing and keeps people coming back.The guys at Fastlane that are making the effort really should be applauded for it.Most people are too lazy to do it,and just want the quick,simple,easy,answer.But there's a lot more to be learned from this experiment than just how 4300 motors work-how to save club racing.

Out of curiosity,has anyone tried to run the Mamba 4600 to see how it compares?
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Old 11-01-2006, 03:18 PM   #75
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No one has ran the Mamba 4600 head to head with the Novak 4300, at least here in KC. But from the little testing we have done with it, it does seem to be a little bit faster then the Novak 4300.

Should no more soon as it will hopefully get to run with them. Not to mention no more stick programming and no thermaling issues. But it does seem to have a deadband issue.

Later,
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