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Old 11-21-2006, 04:36 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by andrewdoherty
I am not 100% on this but when I read it it made sense to me. The sintered rotor runs cooler because it can be manufactured a bit smaller which allows a larger air gap between the "can" of the motor and the rotor. It can me made smaller because it is a stronger magnet. The heat of a brushless motor comes from the "friction" ( believe it or not() of the air against the rotor and can as the rotor spins. Again, not 100%. So if you know better please feel free to set me / us straight : )
Since Charlie is on his way to Cleveland today I thought I would answer some questions. The main reason the sintered rotor runs cooler is that it maintains the same output power with less input power than a bonded rotor. In simple terms the heat generated in any motor comes from the power loss in the motor itself. Thus since there is less power loss with the sintered rotor you have less heat buildup. Heat generated from air friction is minimal if any in a brushless motor as the rotor is very smooth.
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:01 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by syndr0me
Charlie,

We've heard motor tuners say since the beginning that brushless motors will end up being every bit as tunable as brushed motors, and that it's just a matter of time before this happens. Yet, at big races now, half the guys in mod are usually running brushless (at least) and we don't see anybody trying to speed them up with their own brand of shims, or specially zapped rotor or whatever.

You guys, as the creators of the motor, have been about the only people that have done much tuning on them. How much room do you think there is for these motors to be adjusted by the layman once people start figuring them out. Do you think we'll see a similar situation to the one we have now where you've got people buying OEM cans and adding their rotors, or adjusting timing, or whatever else they can think to tinker with?
As Charlie said earlier it is hard to guess what motor tuners will do in the future. One thing for sure there is far less room if any to improve on the brushless motors compared to brushed motors. A brushed motor runs at anywhere from 45% to maybe 60% efficiency. A brushless motor will run close to 90% efficient. Secondly our brushless motors are designed using a very sophisticated computer program. Thus we can maximize the performance before we build it. I also want to thank all the people out there that have purchased our products and are having so much fun. We designed the 4300 and the 13.5 motors to be spec class motors and frankly I am amazed that nobody else has not jumped on the band wagon. The only problem there is they have to build their motors to the exact specs as these two motors for everything to stay as close in racing as it is now. If they do then we welcome them to do so as it can only help us all in the end.
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:14 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by syndr0me
Charlie,

We've noticed that some of the 4300's are now shipping with the updated solder tabs. Is it true that the motors needs to be timed different in order to use the new tabs? If so, is there any chance these would perform differently? We've had a couple of guys say they're slower, and I'm just wondering if they need to gear them appropriately for that motor's power band, which may be different than those with the old solder tabs.

Did you guys ever imagine a whole class would be built around your 4300 motor? Seems like it happened because that was the slowest motor available for 4 years, and now, even though the 13.5 is available, the 4300 class has got enough momentum to keep going. Perhaps this will be the brushless 19T of the future. With that in mind, do you think there's a chance of releasing an updated version of the 4300? As it stands right now, it costs over $100 to get one outfitted with a new endbell and sintered rotor, making it the most expensive motor you guys make. It seems like an updated version would go a long way toward easing the pain of transitioning into 4300 racing. If nothing else, because the sintered rotor's ease of use/maintenance/longevity compared to the SS rotor.
The updated solder tabs have nothing to do with the timing of the motor. The reason we went to them was two fold. First it has less voltage drop than the PC Board and secondly it is easier to solder the wires to it.
Actually we designed the 4300 to be an equivalent stock motor but it turned out to be as fast as a 19 turn so that is why we brought out the 13.5 turn. This time we sent quite a few 13.5 turn motors to drivers around the country to get their feedback instead of our own. Now we have two motors that are what I like to call Spec class motors. And yes we a pleasantly surprised that they are catching on so fast.

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Old 11-21-2006, 05:30 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by UN4RACING
I have a question? Witch rotor has more rpm? If we new this straight from your testing ground it would really help. there are three different ones as far as I know. I think it would be a nice short cut to a big question? And thank you I'll look forward to meeting you I hope you make it by. Also what should the coil wire measure? And what consistancy, or I mean hand wound or machine? And please dont start putting #s on these things I 4 1 dont want to know. When can we exspect a ventalated one? If my 4300 could just take a breath of freash air I think I could stomp those 19s .Oh and dont worry we wont hold you to it. We,, shall I say resort our thoughts all the time. Just when you think you got it figured out, another post pops up. If you can just set us straight on at least one thing we'll appreciate it. Later Charlie. I know your probably saying slow down slow down. But you said ask away.
It is not a question of which rotor has the most RPM but which Rotor generates the most power under a loaded condition. This definitely is the sintered rotor. As it turns out the sintered rotor has less RPM under a no load condition but it has more Torque under a loaded condition with an overall higher output power. All our motors are hand wound and are very consistent. As far as ventilating the can this is not the best way to cool the motor. All the heat in a brushless motor is generated in the stator which is on the outside of the motor. We have found out that our new heat sink, which replaces the sleeve of the motor is the best way to cool the motor. As far as the coil wire measurement I think Charlie answered that and we will be posting the inductance readings on our website.
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:35 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by UN4RACING
Anyone got a rotor zapper?
Not that I know of. For sintered magnets they are very large and very expensive.
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:41 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Novak
It is not a question of which rotor has the most RPM but which Rotor generates the most power under a loaded condition. This definitely is the sintered rotor. As it turns out the sintered rotor has less RPM under a no load condition but it has more Torque under a loaded condition with an overall higher output power. All our motors are hand wound and are very consistent. As far as ventilating the can this is not the best way to cool the motor. All the heat in a brushless motor is generated in the stator which is on the outside of the motor. We have found out that our new heat sink, which replaces the sleeve of the motor is the best way to cool the motor. As far as the coil wire measurement I think Charlie answered that and we will be posting the inductance readings on our website.
Bob Novak
Ive been using sintered rotors and the new heatsink in all my brushless motors for a few months and havent had any heat issues
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Old 11-22-2006, 12:54 PM   #157
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Bob,

Thank you for taking the time to come here and answer questions for us. The technical responses we've gotten from you and Charlie, not to mention Mr. Black from Orion have been very enlightening. It's refreshing to the the companies out there pushing the envelope on new technology interfacing so closely with their customers.

We're all very encouraged by the turnout (large for us) for our local SS4300/LiPo class, not to mention the enthusiasm behind it. We're hoping to get some people from around the region at our "big" race in a few weeks, and will do our part at the club level, and as informed consumers to try and push this class, as it's very clear to all of us that this is the future. Hopefully we can continue to host large events, and get more interest as these classes start to grow.

More people locally are starting to see that the sintered rotor is superior in every way. It's surprising how different it needs to be geared compared to the bonded rotor. It's SO different, you might not even think to try that much gear. I believe that initially led us to false feelings of inferiority, which we're getting past now.

Do you have any feelings on what temperature the motor and GTB ESC need to reach before their performance is impacted? Currently, most of us aren't running the fans on the ESC, and it almost always comes off around 100 degrees. The external temperature on the motors reaches around 130 with the sintered rotor. We're able to get them much cooler with the heatsink and possibly a fan, but it's not clear at this point if that's necessary, at least with the SS4300.

Can you speculate on the future of brushless ESC's without revealing too much about future products? Things like size and additional features, perhaps?

I came across this the other night, which I assume is a hack job. I thought it was interesting, but I'd rather not let dirt in, especially since we're not struggling with heat (anymore) using sintered rotors.

http://www.rcinfos.com/2006/2006_11_...touring_28.jpg
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Old 11-22-2006, 01:15 PM   #158
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Also, I'm a bit curious why all the new motors don't use the "ribbed" can. Is there some technical reason, for example, why the 13.5 didn't get it, but the 18.5 did? Do you guys find that the ribbed can makes any significant difference? We definitely like the lighter endbell, which people are starting to use on their 4300's.
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:59 AM   #159
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I love my new sintered rotor!! We ran a practice last night at our weekly race for our upcoming Enduro race and ran a 12 min main...I have 4300 and used my 4200 battery...My roll out was 1.25 and the car came off at 119 degrees at the end!!!!! Love it, thank you Novak!! Lipo coming soon and I am highly considering the Maxamps 6000...Any suggestions for charger and lipo? Pros and Cons Orion vs Maxamps. I need charger for lipo and nimh...Going to sale my current charger and equiptment for nimh except for the pro 4200 that I have.....
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:11 PM   #160
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Well Mr. Novak your honest and right to my knowlegde. The wire is consistant I tore down a 5800 motor and each wire was right on. I was very impressed and glad to see that. I'm more comfortable buying any motor in the case without seeing any #s. only one follow up. If I take Fresh stock rotor vs a fresh sentered witch is faster? I know witch is better but if I ran 5 brand new fresh out of the package stock rotors in a major race. Vs 1 sentered rotor. would i have an advantage? I'm talking 1 per round. would that 1 run be faster than the sentered? I think the 1 run with the lighter rotor with full magnet capasity would be faster. At the cost of 2 stock motors would that be an advantage?

........... And I compliment, you noone else exept Mr. Black Seem to be taking this class seriuos enough to get on here and help advance this class thank you. Keep up the good work. And dont forget to hang out here from time to time.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:28 PM   #161
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Looks like an lrp with the wire cut. Theres no reason for that. And the vents look pro. The screen appears to be inside the can? not good they may have tampered with the wire must be an open mod class.

Blue heat sink with a novak on switch. I'm not sure whats up but someone is very talented.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:57 PM   #162
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You guys in here ( lipo + brushless + foams ) are living in peace, unlike in the other forums arguing 4 cells vs 6 cells.
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Old 11-24-2006, 09:03 PM   #163
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6 cell is faster. End of argument.

Hey thats how I bird hunt.
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:03 AM   #164
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Maybe this can help cut back on warranty calls?
It seems if the magnet is worn out, it will shut off the motor like it's thermoling?
The temp is cold but if you turn the speedo off and turn it back on it will run for a bit then shut off again.
I put in a fresh magnet and problem solved.
I heard these things operate on a pulse or something?
Does the weak magnet cause this?
Just trying to keep the thread awake, It appears everyone is still asleep on the couch from eating to much.

LATER. X Thanks again.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:44 AM   #165
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Bob

since your helping out Charlie and answered the part about the new solder tabs....any insight on the second part of Adam's previous posted question?

Charlie,

We've noticed that some of the 4300's are now shipping with the updated solder tabs. Is it true that the motors needs to be timed different in order to use the new tabs? If so, is there any chance these would perform differently? We've had a couple of guys say they're slower, and I'm just wondering if they need to gear them appropriately for that motor's power band, which may be different than those with the old solder tabs.

Did you guys ever imagine a whole class would be built around your 4300 motor? Seems like it happened because that was the slowest motor available for 4 years, and now, even though the 13.5 is available, the 4300 class has got enough momentum to keep going. Perhaps this will be the brushless 19T of the future. With that in mind, do you think there's a chance of releasing an updated version of the 4300? As it stands right now, it costs over $100 to get one outfitted with a new endbell and sintered rotor, making it the most expensive motor you guys make. It seems like an updated version would go a long way toward easing the pain of transitioning into 4300 racing. If nothing else, because the sintered rotor's ease of use/maintenance/longevity compared to the SS rotor.
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