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Old 10-29-2006, 12:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porschejim911
You'd think Sony would know about batteries too, but I hear they are blowing up right and left. I am not on either side of this debate but I sure don't want things blowing up. Would a change to lipo put all the matchers out of business?
Lithium Ion is a little bit different story. Still, you're talking about a relatively small number of batteries compared to the number in use, and limited to certain older batches with specific defects. Basically every cell phone in the world (and that's a lot) uses the same technology, and we have those glued to our heads all day without fear of battery explosions. Li-ion has revolutionized consumer electronics. Where the hell would we be today if our cell phones and laptops were using NiMH? There's a reason those companies are producing cells specifically for R/C and aging power tools, which is basically because nobody else has a need for that ancient crap.

As for the matchers, I have mixed feelings about that. I'm sure they're nice guys, but their business model exploits manufacturing tolerances in batteries to drastically drive up the price, which is in turn passed on to the consumers at a profit. Are they providing a service, or gouging competitive racers that have to get good cells in order to be on par with the other guys? I feel bad for saying it, because I don't want to see anybody's business disappear, but I don't think the absence of battery matchers in competitive racing would be a bad thing.

And, while it's undoubtedly possible to match LiPo and tune brushless motors, it remains to be seen whether there would be enough of a difference from something you buy out of the box to make it worth whatever extra price they'll charge to support their business model. Today, good batteries and motors make a very real, noticeable difference to a competitive racer. Would matched LiPo matter enough to justify paying more? Run time isn't going to be an issue, and the voltage from pack to pack (so far) is remarkably similar.

We've been burned by promises of new battery technology in the past, and it may happen again in the future. This is a big enough step, though, to justify moving forward and trying something new. Not only is it easier and cheaper for new racers, but it could give rise to a revolution in chassis design with the small, incredibly light cells.
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Old 10-29-2006, 07:03 PM   #17
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Talk about blowing up... what about the person with a smoke in there mouth, refueling a Nitro car (truck) and dropping the smoke into the "area".... What should we also outlaw nitro, because of the "dumb ass" using it?

Sorry but no one is talking about killing the subCs. Hell run them if you want, but quit stopping me from running my LiPos if I like too in a race you are in. Look your SubC both me, I have seen them go off like a bullet from a faulty charger. Oh, ok, so you want to argue the "voltage advantage", please, I just received my new pack of 4200 worlds (LiPo is not legal for the race) and you add up the voltage (1.235) x 6 (cells) you get to 7.41... Wow I guess that is out the window... So what is the deal really... Let people run what they want, and weigh the cars....
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:57 PM   #18
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bottom line is, any cell can blow up if mistreated. ive seen IBs blew up. electric racing is getting rediculously expensive. especially for new racers buying all the equipment to be/stay competitive. imagine running Lipo and brushless. everybody is in the same league, its a battle of skills not money. unfortunately, matchers and motor tuners not needed anymore thus driving the cost down.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:27 PM   #19
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Just out of curiosity, what would a ROAR rule look like for Li-Po batteries.

Current rule is basically 6 1.2 sub C 4200mah or less.
Arent there a number of different sizes and configurations of Li Po batterys

I am wondering also if once approved and people are trying to squeeze every once of power out of a pack if some of the methods might compromise the safety of the cells. I am not saying that would be the case, just curious.
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:43 AM   #20
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I took part in the Guiness 24hr record attempt this month, the Schumaker/ Tekin team.
Jim from Tekin supplied us with his protoype BL, geared down to 19t and his proto lipos,
He had 6 4800's that lasted 15 min per run, came out of the car and were charged again. They came out of the car cold, and were warm after being charged. Not one problem at all, batts or motor.
I'm a convert now, just waiting for Tekin to release them.
6 of the 8 teams ran lipo's and not one blowup! There was a nmhi radio pack that was laying outside the door smoking, guess the dont like being charged at 6A.

The big hangup now is ROAR, what are they going to do about them? Most tracks still follow roar guidlines for series and club racing, I cant justify the additional cost of lipos and chargers until they are raceable.
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Old 10-30-2006, 03:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
The two biggest distributors in the UK don't sell LiPo because of all the incidents in the flight market. I can't believe that your big distributors are unaware of the issues either. Put simply, NiMh uses inert materials, and LiPo uses active materials.
Our "big dist." are very aware of this however they are also intelligent and open minded enough to research the current product and not base judjement on past experiences with a level of technology much cheaper and less safe then what we are dealing with today. Saying today's Li-Po's are dengerous because of "li_?? cells from 5 years ago mistreated and or abused by the user is like saying Ni-MH are dengerous because if they tip over acid spills out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
LiPos are no exception, as their technology is already being made out of date by LiMn and other materials.
LiMn is not anything new and there is reason after all this time it is what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Additionally, there are strong rumours of a 5v cell. This is the beginning, not the end.
They have technolgies that can make 5V cells now but simply making a certain voltage is not the only requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Nitro is a big attraction in the UK - no coincidence that there are almost no new electric cars in the pipeline from the big manufacturers (except 18th scale) and Losi have gone into 8th Rallycross IC.
Just to clarify ALL the big manufacturers are releasing new electric cars many of the Japanese makers who have not made race grade off-road cars are now doing so for the electric market and there are new Electric TC coming from every single big manufacturer as we speak.

Also if safety is your cause I think Nitro is a hard client to defend.

I think there is truly a space for everyone's needs however the lines between racer and the hobbyist will soon be either spread far apart or merge, which way it goes and whether it helps or hinders this hobby are yet to be seen.
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Old 10-31-2006, 08:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
Frankly,

ROAR and all other sanctioning bodies are well aware of the advantages of Lipo's and they are well into planning. The problem here is not just if ( for that matter when) we go to Lipo typoe technology , it is how to do it.

Take for example 12th scale or pretty much all of oval racing, we cannot put a 2 cell Lipo in a 12th scale car, it would be ballistic. That would not be a prudent descsion to make as a sanctioning body. If we put a single cell in there, the voltage would be too low....

Then we have the impending 4 cell TC. We have a similar situation......

Sanctioning bodies are at crossroads in technology..Between Lipo, Brushless.... Voltage....

The best way for everyone to push this stuff forward is to race it at the local level... When there are a big enough group of racers running this stuff, then the sanctioning bodies HAVE TO LISTEN and make changes.

A racer on our state series, runs Lipo in Practice, then straps in a NIMH battery to race with, good example of making the best of the situation.

It will happen eventually......

This just about sums things up.

It's not a case over this side of the water of Listening to the drivers, its a case of the drivers making rule proposals, which if passed would bring LiPo's in - the BRCA and EFRA are democratic associations, its the drivers choice.

But to give you an idea of what's going on:-

EFRA AGM is this weekend, there are 2 proposals to go to 4 cell touring cars, and no proposals for LiPo's.
And this is in the ELECTRIC section, not 1/10 Touring only, or 1/10 Buggy only, but both & 1/12 together.

So not one of the (22?) countries that make up EFRA has requested - on its drivers behalf - for the introduction of LiPo cells into any of the electric racing areas.
This is probably because:-
In 1/12 the cell voltage is incompatable.
In 1/10 Buggy there doesn't appear to be the interest.
In 1/10 Touring most people seem to think that 4 cell is the way the vote's going to go - and then LiPo Voltage won't be compatiable..

So as Tim says, once the dust settles from the above the drivers at club & regional level will make their mind up, the proposals will then filter through to National annual general meetings and the drivers will then vote in the rules they want.

Jim Spencer
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BRCA.
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Old 10-31-2006, 09:03 AM   #23
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Regardless of what happens the racing community will always exist but to what capacity once "toy" R/C cars are faster then "racing" grade cars will be something to be seen and hopefully the powers that be will see the writing on the wall and prevent this from happening. It would be a shame to show up with a World Championship set-up at your local track to be walked down the straightaway by a Tyco car. This is not a joke and it could very much happen in the near future.
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Old 10-31-2006, 10:35 AM   #24
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We'll just break out our DS's and Pan Cars and spank some TC butt....
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:53 AM   #25
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Personaly I run lipo and will not go back. It should be approved for any classes that it will fit into. Personaly I think the governing bosies are just scared to approve them. Everyone is sue happy. Any tech can be safe or dangerous depending on how it is handled.

Why anyone would go to 4 cell is beyond me. The lower in cells you go the more heat issues you have. Why would you not stay at 6 cell in touring car and just make a motor with more turns to slow it down? Voltage is your friend. If you design a motor with a lower KV rating then it slows down and you do not build up heat to slow it down. Change the motor not the batteries. If you abuse your cells less you need to buy new ones less often. LIPO is a good technology. I bet they will make lipo that would work in 12th scale in the future. Change the motor not lower the voltage.
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Old 11-02-2006, 11:03 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nichocgn
Personaly I run lipo and will not go back. It should be approved for any classes that it will fit into. Personaly I think the governing bosies are just scared to approve them. Everyone is sue happy. Any tech can be safe or dangerous depending on how it is handled.

Why anyone would go to 4 cell is beyond me. The lower in cells you go the more heat issues you have. Why would you not stay at 6 cell in touring car and just make a motor with more turns to slow it down? Voltage is your friend. If you design a motor with a lower KV rating then it slows down and you do not build up heat to slow it down. Change the motor not the batteries. If you abuse your cells less you need to buy new ones less often. LIPO is a good technology. I bet they will make lipo that would work in 12th scale in the future. Change the motor not lower the voltage.
thats why theres 19t and stock racing. the point is to lower the cost of rc for everybody to enjoy not just rich kids and sponsored drivers and to equalize equipments not just sponsored driver get the best batch of batts and motors. brushless is a good start. brushless and lipo is great for this hobby. no expensive match packs, no expensive tuned motor. now that will lower the cost of this hobby.
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Old 11-02-2006, 12:44 PM   #27
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Lipo's are here. Take a look around next time your in a Lowe's, Home-Depot or any other portable tool supplier. The price of a 18v NiMH is up to $90.00. Most of the Contractors I deal with want more run time out of there equipment and less charge time. R/C racing didn't drive the batteries from 1400's to 4200's. Tools did. ie (Computers, Medical equipment, Hand Tools) Charging Lipo's the way we do is a different matter. Safety is and always should be factor considered by any rules body.
There are many more Batteries to come along with Lipo's. Organic Polyamar will be the next thing on the market. Charges fast. Run time way out there and is not a bio-hazzard.
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
Frankly,

ROAR and all other sanctioning bodies are well aware of the advantages of Lipo's and they are well into planning. The problem here is not just if ( for that matter when) we go to Lipo typoe technology , it is how to do it.

Take for example 12th scale or pretty much all of oval racing, we cannot put a 2 cell Lipo in a 12th scale car, it would be ballistic. That would not be a prudent descsion to make as a sanctioning body. If we put a single cell in there, the voltage would be too low....

Then we have the impending 4 cell TC. We have a similar situation......

Sanctioning bodies are at crossroads in technology..Between Lipo, Brushless.... Voltage....

The best way for everyone to push this stuff forward is to race it at the local level... When there are a big enough group of racers running this stuff, then the sanctioning bodies HAVE TO LISTEN and make changes.

A racer on our state series, runs Lipo in Practice, then straps in a NIMH battery to race with, good example of making the best of the situation.

It will happen eventually......
Why don't go for milder motor ( 11T ) with Li Po batts ?
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nichocgn
Personaly I run lipo and will not go back. It should be approved for any classes that it will fit into. Personaly I think the governing bosies are just scared to approve them. Everyone is sue happy. Any tech can be safe or dangerous depending on how it is handled.

Why anyone would go to 4 cell is beyond me. The lower in cells you go the more heat issues you have. Why would you not stay at 6 cell in touring car and just make a motor with more turns to slow it down? Voltage is your friend. If you design a motor with a lower KV rating then it slows down and you do not build up heat to slow it down. Change the motor not the batteries. If you abuse your cells less you need to buy new ones less often. LIPO is a good technology. I bet they will make lipo that would work in 12th scale in the future. Change the motor not lower the voltage.
Strongly agree " change the motor not the batteries !!! "
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:53 PM   #30
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Just wait a couple of weeks before the next ROAR Carpet Nats. They'll legalize LiPos then.

*snicker*
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