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Old 05-29-2007, 12:04 PM   #121
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Switching completely to rubber at big races isn't going to happen any time soon for sedan.

I don't think that foams are much more expensive for club racing. You can start a little big and work your way down from there. No, foams won't last as long as a set of premounts but they will have the same basic traction for most of the tire's life.

For the big races, the rubber tire guys figured it out. Limit the number of sets that a racer can get. The same thing can be done with foams. Limit the racers to 4 or 5 sets of tires for the race. Maybe even allow two manufacturers to provide tires for the event so that the racers have a choice.

Foam tire racing is out of control because we let it get that way.
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Old 05-29-2007, 12:35 PM   #122
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Quote:
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Switching completely to rubber at big races isn't going to happen any time soon for sedan.

I don't think that foams are much more expensive for club racing. You can start a little big and work your way down from there. No, foams won't last as long as a set of premounts but they will have the same basic traction for most of the tire's life.

For the big races, the rubber tire guys figured it out. Limit the number of sets that a racer can get. The same thing can be done with foams. Limit the racers to 4 or 5 sets of tires for the race. Maybe even allow two manufacturers to provide tires for the event so that the racers have a choice.

Foam tire racing is out of control because we let it get that way.
I don't see what's out of control about foam tire racing. I don't see fast guys throwing set, after set of foams at their car to stay competitive on the club level. Hell, with the exception of a few big races a year most folks I've seen get a few weekends out of a set, even when the mow 'em down to 58 mm and run them.
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Old 05-29-2007, 01:15 PM   #123
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As our club membership dropped over the last few years. The hay days brought in 70-100 entries on a sunday, the PRiemer class was 19T foams and stock rubber. The fast guys ran foam. The volume of racers was high so the foam class was where the fastest guys would go.

Our membership has dropped alot, the sunday races are maybe 30 enties and we run week night races that bring about 20-25 racers out. No more multiple classes just stock rubber. Foam died off as the extra setup attention was begining to be a waste when the competition was not as high as it used to be.

Many guys coming out at night just wanted to show up charge packs and race. No truing,ridehiegh,droop adjustments every so often. It is extra work to some its nothing to others its a pain.

Today its 100% rubber carpet racing here. The tires grip well and last along time, we dont have wallet wars since there are not a huge amoutn of racers.. We have even tried to get foam going again but guys are so used to the simplicity of rubber that it gets the no vote all the time... If the club was to grow more maybe foam would make a return

I guess my point if there is a point here. IS that rubber can save your club! LOL OR at least easy the work load on racers at the club level. I was one of the biggest foam guys going when we first got foams legal at our club way back in the hpi rs4 days
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Old 05-29-2007, 01:28 PM   #124
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Bottom line is that your track will do what is needed to survive whether it is rubber or foam tires, stock or modified, brushed or brushless, NiMh or Lipo.
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Old 05-29-2007, 01:42 PM   #125
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Here in Ft Wayne we're almost all rubber/carpet in TC. It makes so much more sense when your Tuesday night club racing. It makes for some fun racing. We have a handful of guys starting to run foam again. We need some foam tire racing to make the trip worth it for out of towners that still race TC foam. We usually run the foam TC on Sundays where the out of town draw is more. The TCs really put the traction down for the 1/12 guys. You really need a little bit of both, but it all comes down to keeping the track heathly and growing.
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:11 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CypressMidWest
I don't see what's out of control about foam tire racing. I don't see fast guys throwing set, after set of foams at their car to stay competitive on the club level. Hell, with the exception of a few big races a year most folks I've seen get a few weekends out of a set, even when the mow 'em down to 58 mm and run them.
The problem is that going to a single race can cost $300 in tires. That's hobby shop prices not the "deal" that so many people are getting. People are mowing these things down to nothing and they're one run tires. Two at best.

If there's nothing left for club racing it gets expensive in a hurry.

All the arguing doesn't matter. If it's really a problem you'll see some kind of change.
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:58 PM   #127
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A lot of guys I talked to got really mad around the time of the Novak race. For whatever reason they were going thru foam tires like crazy.

I wound up going to the Nats at CEFX. I happened to bring a lot of old "too small" tires. That's all I ran. They were all under 55mm. Granted, the amount of traction made that possible, but I was on "junk" tires I skimmed to make sets.

I was going to buy tires, but I ended up spending $0.

Moral: save your old foams.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:22 AM   #128
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foam = USA

rubber = rest of the (free) world

my question is: will metric-sized screws overtake imperial-sized screws in the future?

the answer is the same for both question IMHO
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Old 05-30-2007, 04:30 AM   #129
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Im pretty sure Wayne Vince won the stock 12th scale title in Cleveland one year on the tires from a year previous. Jaco's of course

But then again in cleveland you dont get too many runs when your there.
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:23 AM   #130
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I'll say it again, if you only get one run outta set of foams on a touring car, you did one of two things

1. Trued them down too far to begin with. I've found that there's a window of sidewall height that the tire will perform exceptionally well in, true to the bottom end of that window, and all you did was true away a few runs worth of tire.

2. This is the more important (and more common) one, YOUR SET-UP SUCKS. I remember a big name FACTORY MOD DRIVER posting in one of these threads a while back about running the entire Indoor Champs on two sets of tires!! How could he possibly accomplish this seemingly unbelieveable feat? By driving a car that didn't eat the rubber off each corner of the car, and rotating and maintaining those two sets.

Just like in rubber tire, it's what you do with what you have. Neglect your set-up, or your tires and you're gonna pay for it.

Let the rest of the world run rubber, qual-points, one-ways, and bake paragon into the tires for 30 mins. with tire warmers, try to figure out whether they wanna run new tires in round two, or save their other new set for round three or four, because they might need the traction more then, blah, blah, blah. If you doing anything more serious than racing/hanging out with your buddies, foam is easier. There are no gentleman's agreements about who'll run what in what heat. You just maintain your ride, and race.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:03 AM   #131
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Last night after racing was completed I retired my tires. I race one or two times a week. These tires had over a months worth of racing on them. They were chunked and peeling at the end, and worn right down to the glue mounting them. I always cut my tires to 57.5 - 58mm. I really don't see what the problem is with foams. After enough incidental board hits and run-ins with other cars on the track, the rims are really starting to go out of true.

After selecting the compound that worked best with my chassis at the ROAR Nats, I was able to stick with the same set through all qualifying. I would have continued to use these tires for club racing if my car wasn't used as a roller skate by an un-named well known sponsored factory driver... I was not in the a-main, and wasn't about to shell out new sets every run for a performance difference that I didn't think was there. My chassis liked re-runs.

I love what little maintenance that foam tires allow, especially for club racing.
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:02 AM   #132
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With the carpet season rapidly approaching, I've been giving this subject a lot of thought. We have both classes available locally, with foam being more geared toward the experienced racer. It seems like a few of the experienced racers are showing more interest in rubber, though, and I'm starting to lean that way myself.

Lets say, for the sake of discussion, that rubber and foams last about the same amount of time if you're using a control tire (CS27) in a competitive environment. People will argue it both ways, so we'll just call it a wash for now. With that in mind, it seems like a lot of things favor rubber tire. There's less need to fiddle with the ride height/droop between rounds which leaves more time to make minor setup adjustments to help fine tune things. The tires definitely seem more resistant to chunking, or more recently, the sidewalls peeling off after a few runs like seems to be happening with the new big wheel foams. And lets not forget gearing being less of a moving target, which is really nice with stock brushless, because those damn things have a very small ideal gearing window. There are so many options (new and old) with foams now that it's hard to keep track, and stay on top of what's best. Is it cyan/magenta? Oh no, plaids up front. Oh wait, all magenta. Hold on, don't forget lilac, teal, aquamarine and deep purple. There are other reasons as well, mostly related to convenience, but those are already pretty well-documented elsewhere in this thread. I think people get the point.

For me, and this is more of a personal reason, I feel like maybe foam tires are teaching me bad driving habits. It's really all I've ever known, but I've experimented with rubber tires a few times here and there. What I notice right away is that I'm penalized for taking bad lines, and it's obvious. Where with foams, if I blow a line, I can mostly make up for it, with rubbers, there seems to be a lot more incentive to drive smooth and smart. I've always felt like foam tires are a bit of a crutch in that sense. At this stage in my racing, I'm trying to improve my driving, and not focusing so much on whether or not I win a club race. I feel like that progress is slowed somewhat with foams, because it's so easy to point & shoot. Maybe I'm completely wrong about this, it's just the sense I've got from reading, and my own experimentation. I believe driving, and car preparation/setup are the two things which should determine the outcome of a race, not what equipment someone is running or anything like that. I feel we as racers should be working toward improving those aspects of our game at all times, and with that in mind, it seems like rubber is a better choice.

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Old 08-17-2007, 09:10 AM   #133
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Syndrome, rubber does make you a more percise driver in that your line has to be pretty much dead on since your traction is limited on carpet with rubber. The one comment you made about not having to worry about ride height is incorrect. I would have thought the same thing had it not been for my first year at IIC. I ran nothing but rubber and I set my ride height at the beggining of the day thinking I will not have to bother with it anymore. Everytime I went through tech my car was too low and I did not touch it after my rounds. What happens every run puts more crush on the insert so it will change your ride height and it does need to be checked. You are right in that your gearing should not be all over the place but the ride height does need to still be looked after as well as droop. I will need to learn how to drive foam this year at IIC for I signed up for Stock Foam and I have no carpet track anymore to even work on driving or setup. Should be a fun time at IIC this year!!
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:15 AM   #134
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That's good info about the inserts, thank you. I've never heard it put quite like that. With a few years of foam racing behind me, I don't think I could put my car on the track without at least checking ride height/droop to make sure it hasn't changed.
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Old 08-17-2007, 09:24 AM   #135
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Not a problem at all and since you will need that info for when you make your move next year anyhow. Unless they get another carpet track started before you get out this way. I find myself even checking my ride height now even though I run nothing but asphalt.
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