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Old 10-20-2006, 11:58 AM   #46
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We ran rubber for years and foam for the last few years... both have advantages and disadvantages. The biggest problem with rubber is MOST of the big race A main type drivers run foam here in the Midwest. So thats were the competition is.
A example would be the upcoming Halloween Classic at The Gate... a big race that offered a rubber class. The rubber class was dropped due to lack of interest.
The other big race (carpet) that offers a rubber tire class is the Novak. This one does have a good turnout of rubber racers.... but if you check out the past results you will see very few names you would recognize running rubber.
Scotty at Trackside had the Rubber Tire Nationals last spring and after all the talk by rubber guys not many showed and almost all the top guys were foam drivers who went rubber tire for the race.
I just want to race with the guys who push me to get better... if they ran rubber thats the class I would run... but for the most part they run foam
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Old 10-20-2006, 12:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
We ran rubber for years and foam for the last few years... both have advantages and disadvantages. The biggest problem with rubber is MOST of the big race A main type drivers run foam here in the Midwest. So thats were the competition is.
A example would be the upcoming Halloween Classic at The Gate... a big race that offered a rubber class. The rubber class was dropped due to lack of interest.
The other big race (carpet) that offers a rubber tire class is the Novak. This one does have a good turnout of rubber racers.... but if you check out the past results you will see very few names you would recognize running rubber.
Scotty at Trackside had the Rubber Tire Nationals last spring and after all the talk by rubber guys not many showed and almost all the top guys were foam drivers who went rubber tire for the race.
I just want to race with the guys who push me to get better... if they ran rubber thats the class I would run... but for the most part they run foam
Over here in Kenosha the rubber class is much bigger than foam. Usually by more than 2-1.
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Old 10-20-2006, 12:36 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ho-cars
In pre-race testing, used tires produced faster lap times so that is what we went with - breaking in a set of tires in practice and using the same set throughout qualifying.

We later learned that others were using new tires in every round, and in the low traction conditions, new tires were faster over the course of a 5 minute run. This slight mistake cost us dearly but we are confident that the car will win rubber races in the near future.


imagine the cost of that? this is where the Reedy/Tamiya controlled tire format sounds the best. using only tires sold at the event and limiting the amount sold to each driver.. even though this can worked around by drivers unless they are serial #ed to the driver and teched after each heat
This is doen over here for our BRCA nats. You were allowed two sets over a meeting (3Q and 2F). Both sets had to have your brca number on them, and were marked in scrutineering. Too use a second set, you had too get them marked AND sign for them BEFORE you used them.
That system worked very well in my opinion.

Next should be even moreinteresting... looks like it's only going to be 3 pairs allowed per meeting (on one control tyre, rather than the range we had this year).

I know... slightly off topic... but useful I thought

Oh, and BTW... foams are next to non-existent in touring over here (and in europe).
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Old 10-20-2006, 12:41 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ho-cars
imagine the cost of that? this is where the Reedy/Tamiya controlled tire format sounds the best. using only tires sold at the event and limiting the amount sold to each driver.. even though this can worked around by drivers unless they are serial #ed to the driver and teched after each heat
Just a note... the IIC had a controlled rubber tire, limited the amount sold to the driver (for qual and mains), and marked/teched the tires.

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Originally Posted by ottoman
I just want to race with the guys who push me to get better...
That is the best statement. It doesn't matter Rubber or Foam, just race.
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Old 10-20-2006, 12:43 PM   #50
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Since US (and the world??) racing is centered around QUALIFYING much more so than racing, and qualifying is about going as fast as possible in the alloted time frame, I dont see rubber racing taking over.

if we RACED more than we qualified, I think maybe rubber tires might have a better chance of surviiving. This is because racing door to door is much more fun with rubber tires. Its like the F1 debate over a "good show" over ultimate performance. A F1 car can stop so fast and most F1 circuits nowadays are mickey mouse affairs with super slow corner after corner than a really long straight. In a way a 4wd TC on foams is much the same way. Watch any foam race and they look great till someone needs to pass then its a hack fest!! Theres so little slowing involved there are no passing zones.

Thats but one reason.

I am going to get flamed for this and frankyl I dont care, but the rubber tire faithfuls will fill a forum full of this rubber is superior, your track will fail if you dont have a rubber class and if you build, they will come, but give-em a race and where the HELL are they?? That to me is the #2 (#1??) reason why rubber tires wont overtake foams on carpet.
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Old 10-20-2006, 12:55 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Reilly
Like someone else said this is pointless.

I don't... this is a really interesting thread.

Wanna know why? i'll be the first to tell you.

Being a racer at the wonderful Trackside hobbies and raceway in Milwaukee WI for now 10 years i can tell you a story about a time when foam tires weren't even a figment of our imagination.

About ten year's ago at trackside. Rubber was the main attraction for touring car on average racing sunday's and with in addition to that on road was much bigger back then we not only had a stock rubber class we ahad a 19 turn class and a modifed class and we at least had 2-3 heats of modified or stock sedan the only class that was foam tire was F103 and we had 2-3
heat's in that as well! When foam tire came along people thought "wow cool! this is so much better handiling!" however when foam started to get out of hand the costs starting coming up and the chassis had to be modified and the turnout's began to drop steadly throughout the years from 1999 to 2006 today. Rubber tire here at trackside is the dominate class and there is no foam classes on tuesday nights but the turn out's are much much weaker than they were 10 years ago. one tuesday night we only had eight guys to run one class on a single night it was all stock rubber but it was nothing compared to off road which has had steady turnouts of 44-49 people

Heck even the novak was all rubber and had 4 different skill level's of stock classes and had a modified rubber class, so was snowbird's

So Mr. Shookie i really love your topic on if rubber will take over foam becuase i hope it does, since foam overtook rubber before. I'm sick of this foam nonsense, i would love to see snowbirds and novak all rubber again
and possibly IIC to be all rubber so scotty can have some new and interesting classes like maybe a sportsman or mini class or something new.
bring back rubber and lets cut down costs a little bit for running on carpet

-Lee
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Old 10-20-2006, 01:36 PM   #52
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Speek the truth mr leester! Rubber tire, I feel, saved my local track. I thank God every week I have such a nice place to race. I get tired of people nagging the rubber tire thing. We have such a great turnout (for Ft Wayne) and new people showing interest every week. What are people not seeing? I think the more we look at this nation wide, the more we'll see that rubber tire has alot of interest. If it helps save/protect my hobby, I enbrace it.
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Old 10-20-2006, 02:59 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ho-cars
i recently have gone to a asphalt track that runs foam tires on 19T sedan class (no other electric sedan classes). beside tire wear, it is a blast and fast. the 19T cars with foams turn more laps than the nitro sedans. foams on electric?...reason why...well, i asked because some run both classes nitro & electric, and don't want to have to deal with different types of tires. they also don't use Jaco, TRC, Parma tires, that can be $14-$21. they all run the shore rated nitro tires they get for less than $9.00 a pair. my first race there with them i ran rubber and got my butt handed to me, showed the next time and ran foams....i handed it back
I just wanted to throw it in there that Foam tires on asphalt with a mod motor is freaking awesome. Faster then any nitro 200mm car and you can also give 1/8th scale cars a run for their money on a smaller layout. You can like you said get 9.00 a pair nitro foams that last a whole season at most tracks....where can you get a set of rubber tires to provide that much traction and last that long in the heat of the summer? At the same time Rubber tires on asphalt is fun and is more like real racing with some planning and strategy. Just like Rubber tires and Foam tires on carpet they both have their place and racers that want to race them.

Like Ray said racing on rubber tires has more of a real racing feel to it. But the people that are hardcore racers want to go fast and handle well so I donít see rubber taking back the top drawing class at carpet races.

Like Ottoman said you race with the faster people so you yourself can get faster and that is right now foam tires on carpet here in the US.
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Old 10-20-2006, 03:01 PM   #54
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At our track here we have about 4-8 die-hard rubber tire racers and about 60 foam tire racers...lol... We offered rubber tire racing as I was constantly hounded about it. Since we've done it, several people have gone back and forth and still the foam classes prevail by at least 4-1 margine.

Rubber tires will last longer than foams on carpet, no doubt about that. For peak performance, new rubber tires or ones within 1-3 runs are the best. The only time this isn't the case is at a major event that runs both foam and rubber - The foam builds so much traction that the rubber racers actually prefer old tires for the reduced traction.

On a local level it's fine, but if someone starts throwing money at tires - spec or otherwise - they will kill the class. Eventually this is what happens and everyone (in our area) returns to foams.

I don't think it's fair to compare entries and #'s from 5-10 years ago. Look at the changes:

#1 - Cars went from being all injected molded and around $200 to all carbon fiber and aluminum and over $400. This is whether a car is "foam ready" or "rubber ready".

#2 - We are now on 4200's vs 2000's - Twice the capacity and voltage. The cars are going super fast and it's harder for new people to drive and come into the "racing" end of the sport - whether it's foam or rubber.

#3 - I don't think the economy is anywhere near where it was and there are other things for people to do with their time that cost a lot less $$.

Just my .02... I could be wrong...
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Old 10-20-2006, 04:07 PM   #55
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some of my random input...

rubber tires are rarely good "used" at the events ive been to (asphalt) the tires are usually good for up to 3-5 runs (5 if you're not hero driver with A-main agenda) ... and even on carpet at the IIC this year it seemed in the end that new tires were the ticket... with foam tires the traction is fairly consistent through the life of the tire and really only changes by the difference in side bite and rollout due to the diminishing sidewall...

as for longevity... its debateable... i havent gotten a set of foam tires to last more than 15 runs yet starting at 58mm... with rubber tires i've gotten a consistent 30-40 runs out of a set provided that everything after 10 runs cant even be used for a bash for fun club race but is relegated to practice-for-fun tire duty...

rubber tires "cone" too... a bad setup can cause weird wear on certain corners or sides... making a set of tires unuseable when 1 of the 4 gets weird... for that matter if you break a rim or somehow tear a tire then the set is done... no way to match 3 used tires to anything else... with foam tires if one goes down its easy to replace it with a tire of the same compound trued to the right size

when rubber tires/wheels go bad get damaged, the set is done... with foams you can "repair" chunks to a certain reasonable extent...

tuning is about the same... there are only x combinations of foams and its pretty standard what works and what doesnt... rubber tires has a ridiculous amount of options but then every track has the "hot setup" for insert and tire and every big race ususually has a spec setup that negates this option altogether...

i think in the end it really just comes down to preference... the cost will balance itself either way... the club racer will always stretch the life of any tire sacrificing performance and anyone entering a big event will always do so expecting to have to pay a premium to compete with the best...

ok, my .02
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Old 10-20-2006, 04:34 PM   #56
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The 1 thing I would like to see is with foam is that their peak performance is always arould 56-55mm,maybe manufactors should release 56mm tires and that way they can reduce tha price, really who races foam at 63mm????????
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Old 10-20-2006, 04:50 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin K
You can like you said get 9.00 a pair nitro foams that last a whole season at most tracks....
Not sure what you are running but never had a set of tires last more than month...realistically its closer to 8 runs, 4 practice and 4 race. Although I start my touring foams at 56-57mm for club races and 55mm for big races. I try to just have a set for each run already trued to 55mm for big races. One less thing to worry about.
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Old 10-20-2006, 04:57 PM   #58
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I don't have time to unload all of my thoughts and opinions on this, but I would like to mention one thing...

Even tough I actually like racing carpet/foam better than carpet/rubber, (well, at least for this month... I'm likely to change my mind at any given moment...lol), one of the drawbacks of carpet/foam is there isn't nearly the number of carpet tracks in the non-northern states. Hold on, don't blow a fuse!!! I know there are plenty of them, but there's no denying the predominance of carpet up north- obviously because of the weather and the short outdoor season, it only stands to reason, but if you think about it, the chassis tuning us asphalt guys learn carries over to the carpet/rubber chassis tuning even though the traction is higher. It's the tires that causes the big difference in tuning, not the surface. So I think it's cool that Scotty insists on offering both classes at his big events. Our closest carpet track is over 3 hours away from Memphis, and even there the carpet/foam dies off in the summer.

The following statement does NOT mean disrespect to anyone, and it's not the case across the board, but take a look at the list of carpet/foam racers that are winning the majority of races... mostly the guys who've been running carpet up north all their lives. Of course, the same holds true for ashpalt rubber races and the guys down here, but not nearly to the extent of foams.

Also, I've heard there might be a new line of rubber tires coming out that might continue to help keep the rubber tires prices low, and the performance Very high!!! hehehe.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:08 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barry
Not sure what you are running but never had a set of tires last more than month...realistically its closer to 8 runs, 4 practice and 4 race. Although I start my touring foams at 56-57mm for club races and 55mm for big races. I try to just have a set for each run already trued to 55mm for big races. One less thing to worry about.

Are you writing about asphalt or carpet? Most asphalt races are rubber, he was taking about asphalt on foam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinK
I just wanted to throw it in there that Foam tires on asphalt with a mod motor is freaking awesome. Faster then any nitro 200mm car and you can also give 1/8th scale cars a run for their money on a smaller layout. You can like you said get 9.00 a pair nitro foams that last a whole season at most tracks....where can you get a set of rubber tires to provide that much traction and last that long in the heat of the summer? At the same time Rubber tires on asphalt is fun and is more like real racing with some planning and strategy. Just like Rubber tires and Foam tires on carpet they both have their place and racers that want to race them.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:53 PM   #60
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JW - how many sets of 4 tires were drivers limited to at the IIC. were they numbered/assigned to only that driver?
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