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Old 10-13-2006, 02:08 PM   #16
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A specific car of tomorrow can never be made today.

About 12 years ago when touring cars first came out (HPI, FSR Bullet, anything pre-TC3), they were just a novelty. Batteries couldn't handle the weight and drive train losses from these cars. As the batteries, electronics & cars got better, people diched their pan cars for 4wd touring cars, why? Because they can handle track conditions that are not 100% ideal. Today touring cars are the biggest class, who would have guessed that 12 years ago?

What about 2wd electric off road? That class was HUGE 15 years ago. It was popular because the batteries and motor combinations of the time worked. Now the motors and batts are too much for these cars, it's easier (and fun-er) to race 8th scale off road nitro. Who would have thought that...2wd electric to 8th scale 4wd nitro.

10 years from now, li-po & brushless will continue to evolve and make their way into all of our pit boxes.

In my opinion, all the popular cars will be 4wd. 4wd doesn't require idea track conditions to race and it gives the designers freedom to try new ideas (chassis layouts and new innovative ways to get power to all 4 corners).

What about 8th scale off road with brushless motor in each wheel? No drive shafts, diffs, clutches etc.. Just an idea?

Anyway, that's my 2 cents
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Old 10-13-2006, 02:14 PM   #17
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r/c soap box derby?
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Old 10-13-2006, 02:20 PM   #18
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Whatever happened to "drive to the conditions."
If you dont use traction compound and its slippery DRIVE SLOWER!
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopedeloop
Whatever happened to "drive to the conditions."
If you dont use traction compound and its slippery DRIVE SLOWER!
The problem with TC racing is Too Much traction, no one knows how to use the throttle or drive beyond point and shoot...
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:14 PM   #20
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Agreed^^^^^
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:16 PM   #21
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The real problem is no one knows how to drive anymore cause we are all on here flapping our fingers!
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:17 PM   #22
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Same. Just outlaw inserts and have manufacturers figure out how to keep the sidewall up. Guaranteed you'll have harder tires and less traction.
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopedeloop
Whatever happened to "drive to the conditions."
If you dont use traction compound and its slippery DRIVE SLOWER!
Exactly! That's all the traction you've got-deal with it! The track doesn't get slick just when your car goes by-it's the same for everybody.A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

There's two ways to slow the cars down.Limit the power(straightaway speed)or limit the traction(corner speed).The difference between the two is that if you limit the power,the cars are always underpowered,so the door is open to maximize the potential of everything else that isn't regulated.And that's a money pit.And that's what on-road is now.And that's why turnouts suck.

Regulating the motors doesn't work on our little electric cars like it does on full-size race cars because there is really no way to regulate the fuel(the batteries).We regulate the motors(stock,19 turn),and we regulate the maximum capacity of the batteries(4300 nimh)but we don't/can't regulate how they are treated.There is a price cap on stock motors(which have kept them being disposeable junk)but don't price cap the batteries,which are half of the horsepower equasion.It would be like a full size race car series that required a sealed crate motor but didn't regulate the fuel.The guy that dumps a bunch of nitromethane or hydrozine in the tank will make a ton more power-and burn a motor up every day.That's exactly what we do under the current system.Buying $80 packs and charging them at 10 amps is just like dumping nitro in the tank-and it's perfectly legal.But there's price cap on the motors,and the batteries just keep getting better.To the point that what we are running now is the equivalent in fullsize of a flathead Ford with a 10-71 blower and 90% nitro in the tank-one run and done.But if the cars aren't underpowered that all goes away.The power system can be set up for longevity and reliablility.Which costs lot less.Which is good for turnout.Price caps and motor limits don't work.Limiting the traction makes it easy to for you to make more power than you can use.

What's the classic definition of insanity? Insisting on continuing a behavior that has proven to be ineffective.
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:43 PM   #24
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In my opinion, the solution is simple because according to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way to compare motors with different technologies, and this is by the power they generate. Therefore classes should be defined by how many Watts of power a motor can produce at 7.2 Volts.

As Big Jim used to say:
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing. HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque"

For example, for the classes, it could be as easy as this:
Stock = 100 Watts or less
Super Stock = 200 Watts or less
Modified = Unlimited Watts of power

(or some variation like that)

The wattage a motor produces is the only true way to compare motors regardless of the technology: brushed, brushless, or anything that comes in the future. The only thing we really need to make this work is for some companies to make some load dynos, especially some that can do brushless as well.
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Old 10-13-2006, 04:30 PM   #25
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I think that any class that could remind all of the "serious" guys that we do this for fun would be a great idea. What do you think?
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Old 10-13-2006, 04:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James35
In my opinion, the solution is simple because according to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way to compare motors with different technologies, and this is by the power they generate. Therefore classes should be defined by how many Watts of power a motor can produce at 7.2 Volts.

As Big Jim used to say:
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing. HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque"

For example, for the classes, it could be as easy as this:
Stock = 100 Watts or less
Super Stock = 200 Watts or less
Modified = Unlimited Watts of power

(or some variation like that)

The wattage a motor produces is the only true way to compare motors regardless of the technology: brushed, brushless, or anything that comes in the future. The only thing we really need to make this work is for some companies to make some load dynos, especially some that can do brushless as well.
That's a better system than the current one,but it still leaves the batteries out of the equasion.For a system like that to work you would need a chassis dyno.Pick a number-if you use a new Xray with ceramic bearings,a tuned 19turn and 4200 batts charged at 8 amps as your baseline to set your power limit then the guys that want to practice their "big race" setups could.If you could come in under the set horsepower limit with a Speed Gems 13 turn and a 3300 stick pack,that's legal too.That's a level playing field without being a sky high level spending field.If there's any suspicion you just take the car straight off the track to the dyno and see if it makes more watts than the limit.But your club/LHS has to buy a chassis dyno,and no one wants to do that.Even under that type of a system there would still be battery wars to have more power at the 5 minute mark,because the cars would still be underpowered.Under the current system the guy with the mild mod motor and marginal batteries is illegal and a dirty cheater even if he has less power than everyone else.

Limiting the motors never creates a level playing field-it only creates the illusion of a level playing field.

The car of the future needs to be overpowered .
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Old 10-13-2006, 04:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagonman72
I think that any class that could remind all of the "serious" guys that we do this for fun would be a great idea. What do you think?

That would be called 12th scale modified..... Out of all the classes that i race in, 27t stock(very expensive), 19t super stock(a little bit less expensive) and 12th mods(relatively cheap) this is the class that i enjoy the most because even though it is serious, it is great fun at the same time and if you need help like i did the other day a race meeting people are always willing to help, even thoughs who you are competing against....
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Old 10-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #28
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The idea behind Nascar's car for tomorrow is lower cost, increased safety and increased racing parity. It would be nice to have the latter two points for our sport of RC Racing, but unfortunately, RC Racing is not a TV/Advertiser driven sport that demands close finishes to keep public interest high, RC Racing is a manufacturer driven sport. The current manufacturuers that influence the sport of RC Racing, not only want, but need an un-even playing field to sell product. By sponsoring top RC Drivers, RC Car manufacturers can maintain the illusion that product will make the average RC Driver faster, thus keeping the average RC Drivers spending money on new products to chase speed. Even though in most cases the equipment is not the issue, it is the RC Drivers talent capability. As long as the RC manufacturers can create the illusion that new RC equipment is the difference between winning and losing races, they will keep selling all the new RC products they offer each year. It is a sucessful business model that works. I am not condeming the RC manufactures for there success. I actually respect the model they have created, but I do not think this type of model can continue to be successful and create the ltype of longer-term growth for RC Rcaing that has been discussed in so many threads in this forum.
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Old 10-13-2006, 05:48 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
Same. Just outlaw inserts and have manufacturers figure out how to keep the sidewall up. Guaranteed you'll have harder tires and less traction.
Like this? - http://www.venom-racing.com/products...ires/index.htm
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Old 10-13-2006, 08:00 PM   #30
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I wish the r/c world would slow the **** down!
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