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Old 10-16-2006, 03:30 PM   #121
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I have a few points to bring up why is it that there are people complaining that the cars are too fast? Do you see the 1/8th scale nitro on-road racers complaining that the cars they drive are too fast? These cars have more power then they can use in most cases and no one complains they are too fast. The difference is that they are raced on tracks that are built for cars of this speed. Maybe we are trying to drive cars on tracks that are not meant to be driven this fast on. So do the tracks need to be made larger or do the cars need to be driven reasonably? I think itís a little bit of both. Is going to 4 cell the answer I donít know? I feel that going to 4 cells is just a band aid and it will only make the cost of TC racing grow as now just about every car out there will have to be redesigned. Plus you will see a flood of super light weight drive train parts to get every ounce out of the cars and as things get lighter they wear out faster so the cost goes up there. If the current ESCís canít handle the power of todayís new batteries then where does the problem exists? Maybe if the ESC manufactures havenít stopped working on brushed ESCís over the last 2 years or so maybe there wouldnít even be this debate right now. So if a manufacture was to come out with an ESC that would not blow up and would last with the current 6 cell power out there we wouldnít even be having this debate would we?

Another thing I'm no electronics specialist but doesnít a loss of voltage mean an increase in amperage? So going to 4 cells wont that increase the amp load that the cells take? When you have 6 cells isnít the amp load spread out over all 6 cells now when you are going to 4 cells isnít that same amp load now spread over 4 cells going to do more damage to the cells? If we went to add more cells or higher voltage and higher turn motors wouldnít we have motors and speed controls last longer and have slower speed of the cars?
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:45 PM   #122
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I've heard of exactly zero grassroots 4 cell sedan classes being run around the country. Why, exactly, do we need the sanctioning bodies to tell us what's best for us? I thought they were supposed to identify trends and things that are generating interest, and then try to embrace and extend them. Where's the outcry from racers and consumers to give us this class?

Sure, maybe motors designed for 6 cells will require less maintenance when run with only 4 cells, but as others have said, that won't last for long. If the current motors or ESCs can't hang with the voltage , someone will make something that can, and other companies will follow their lead or go under. That's the nature of business. This whole 4 cell thing sounds like taking two steps back to gain one step forward.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:48 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenport
I think we the consumer need to let everyone know our feelings on 4 cell touring cars. Lets all edit our signatures to do just that!
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:49 PM   #124
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First of all I am speaking for myself not ROAR. However, I am on the ExCom so my opinion carries a little more clout than most.

Thats said there is no ROAR proposal I am aware of for 4 cells in 2007. It going to happen at the independant races before it happens at ROAR races.

There are proposals submitted to the BRCA, EFRA and IFMAR.

Advil - Majorities have been wrong before. All the oval guys whined and cried about changing to 4 cell and guess what...they got over it and are having a good time racing now.

In the US we have a representative government. Why, because our fore fathers wisely saw that the avearge joe is too wrapped up in his own underinformed and self centered world to be able to make rational decisions about difficult matters involving the overall good of the country.

This is a similar situation. The most of industy leaders want 4 cell. The masses want the status quo. The industry leaders, quite frankly know whats better for the hobby than you do.

Why? Demographics. 95% of all racers are in it for 2-5 year stretches before dropping out of the hobby for 5-10 years at a time. The reasons for this are girls, cars, college, new jobs, marriage, children, children going to college, etc. Why racers are in the hobby thay want to go fast and have fun at all costs. This is fine and good.

The problems arise when this majority of short term racers start pushing to get rules on the books. They dont have the experience to know what best but they are vocal and they get thier way even it is damaging to the racing they love. They dont have to deal with the consequences until 5 lears later when they get back into racing. This has happened dozens of times in the past.

A good example of this today is the push for a BL stock class. Sure there is the Novak 13.5 but we dont know enough about this motor to be able to create a class around it and a set of rules to support it. What if we make a set of rules and next week there is a Brand XYZ 13.5 that follows the rules but is faster than a 19T?(this is certianly possible) But the racers want it so it has to be right...right? The BL 13.5 will kill off 27T because guys want to go fast and not have to maintain motors. Now what? Where to noobs start out? The answer is they don't...the class dies. Thats what happend to 1/10th scale pan cars.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:50 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Legalize 4 cell Pan Car and I'm all for it...
We have its called 1/12th and it growing FAST!
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:54 PM   #126
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Oh, god "big brother knows best?" That's the attitude from ROAR? If so, then ROAR is completely dead to me. If I ever gain influence in this hobby, I will do my best to discredit them and bring about their demise.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:54 PM   #127
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Advil - Majorities have been wrong before. All the oval guys whined and cried about changing to 4 cell and guess what...they got over it and are having a good time racing now.

So, it will be legal for me to run my pan car with the TC's on 4 cells???? You keep referencing running 4 cell pan cars running oval... So 4 you'll be able to chose between an efficient and light Pan Car or a heavy and inefficent TC, correct?
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:58 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
We have its called 1/12th and it growing FAST!
And we have 4 cell 10th scale racing, it's called Oval....

I think while I'm at it I'm gonna yank the big block out of my Chevelle and put a 4 cylinder VTEC Honda in it... Thay can make pretty good HP... Damn, no torque though.... Oh that's right... Oval Racing relies on HP and road racing needs torque...
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:06 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Oval Racing relies on HP and road racing needs torque...

Thats not true. Wattage is the single most important thing in electric motors, then RPM and then Torque.

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Old 10-16-2006, 04:16 PM   #130
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I like the idea of a 4 cell mod sedan class .
It just may motivate most of America`s Sedan racer`s to move up out of the stock class`s & enjoy the most they can get from racing a Sedan..

However..
Hate the idea of the Li-po tech not being able to coexist with the changes...

Got to be a better way .....
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:16 PM   #131
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I have a few points to bring up why is it that there are people complaining that the cars are too fast? Do you see the 1/8th scale nitro on-road racers complaining that the cars they drive are too fast? These cars have more power then they can use in most cases and no one complains they are too fast. The difference is that they are raced on tracks that are built for cars of this speed. Maybe we are trying to drive cars on tracks that are not meant to be driven this fast on. So do the tracks need to be made larger or do the cars need to be driven reasonably? I think itís a little bit of both.

How man guys run 1/8th compared to other classes? Even oval racers outnumber 1/8th racers. Why becuase they are crazy fast and a lot of guy are flat out scared to run them. That said..the guys that run them have fun but most are just barely in control.

Is going to 4 cell the answer I donít know? I feel that going to 4 cells is just a band aid and it will only make the cost of TC racing grow as now just about every car out there will have to be redesigned.

Regardless of the cell count this happens anyways. 415, 415MS, 415MSX, 415MR, T1, T1R, T1FK 05, T2, T2 007', Axis, Mission, Mi2, Mi2EC. you will get a new car every year wether we run 4 or 6 cells

Plus you will see a flood of super light weight drive train parts to get every ounce out of the cars and as things get lighter they wear out faster so the cost goes up there. If the current ESCís canít handle the power of todayís new batteries then where does the problem exists? Maybe if the ESC manufactures havenít stopped working on brushed ESCís over the last 2 years or so maybe there wouldnít even be this debate right now.

If we still ran 262sec, 1.13v, 23IR RC2000's we would be fine too.

So if a manufacture was to come out with an ESC that would not blow up and would last with the current 6 cell power out there we wouldnít even be having this debate would we?

[b]They can do it but are you willing to pay what it will sell for? Will it fit in your current chassis...uh oh...we need to redesign the cars again [/]

Another thing I'm no electronics specialist but doesnít a loss of voltage mean an increase in amperage? So going to 4 cells wont that increase the amp load that the cells take?

Technically yes but the motors we run are incapable if pulling more amps. We can time up and gear up to pull the same amps but ohm's law states the Volts x Amps = Watts (power output). At lower voltage you will have a lower wattage output and less heat and damaget to motors.

When you have 6 cells isnít the amp load spread out over all 6 cells now when you are going to 4 cells isnít that same amp load now spread over 4 cells going to do more damage to the cells?

It dosen't work like that. 4 and 6 cells packs are wired in series so they both see the same amperage. At 40A each cell in a 4 or 6 cell pack sees 40A.

If we went to add more cells or higher voltage and higher turn motors wouldnít we have motors and speed controls last longer and have slower speed of the cars?

While this logic is perfect for R/C airplanes and helicopters it would not work for cars. Human nature would stop it from working. Racer will always push the limits. Move voltage equal more power. More power equals more heat. More heat is where we are right now and its not working
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:17 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
First of all I am speaking for myself not ROAR. However, I am on the ExCom so my opinion carries a little more clout than most.

Thats said there is no ROAR proposal I am aware of for 4 cells in 2007. It going to happen at the independant races before it happens at ROAR races.

There are proposals submitted to the BRCA, EFRA and IFMAR.

Advil - Majorities have been wrong before. All the oval guys whined and cried about changing to 4 cell and guess what...they got over it and are having a good time racing now.

In the US we have a representative government. Why, because our fore fathers wisely saw that the avearge joe is too wrapped up in his own underinformed and self centered world to be able to make rational decisions about difficult matters involving the overall good of the country.

This is a similar situation. The most of industy leaders want 4 cell. The masses want the status quo. The industry leaders, quite frankly know whats better for the hobby than you do.

Why? Demographics. 95% of all racers are in it for 2-5 year stretches before dropping out of the hobby for 5-10 years at a time. The reasons for this are girls, cars, college, new jobs, marriage, children, children going to college, etc. Why racers are in the hobby thay want to go fast and have fun at all costs. This is fine and good.

The problems arise when this majority of short term racers start pushing to get rules on the books. They dont have the experience to know what best but they are vocal and they get thier way even it is damaging to the racing they love. They dont have to deal with the consequences until 5 lears later when they get back into racing. This has happened dozens of times in the past.

A good example of this today is the push for a BL stock class. Sure there is the Novak 13.5 but we dont know enough about this motor to be able to create a class around it and a set of rules to support it. What if we make a set of rules and next week there is a Brand XYZ 13.5 that follows the rules but is faster than a 19T?(this is certianly possible) But the racers want it so it has to be right...right? The BL 13.5 will kill off 27T because guys want to go fast and not have to maintain motors. Now what? Where to noobs start out? The answer is they don't...the class dies. Thats what happend to 1/10th scale pan cars.
Adrian,

Look at oval as it is now and tell me that it is a success......If you mean it still exists then I guess so but it is no where near where it used to be 4 cell or no.

As far as a representative goverment goes....they can be wrong too. Can I present the debacle in Iraq as proof? Thanks but no thanks. Sedan racing is NOT the end all be all of R/C. Perhaps the "Industry" has forgotten that we the public vote with $$. When Sedan racing goes bye bye (and it will no matter what) we will move onto what ever grabs us next be it planes, helis, whatever. We might even get back into offroad WHO KNOWS????

P.S. I have been doing this since I was a kid in High School (old and 40+ now)and you know what, with all of the great people I have met over the years and raced with I have NEVER EVER heard one wish his/her car was slower. Perhaps that is the part you "Industry" types are missing........
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:17 PM   #133
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I haven't tested 4 cell personally, but everyone that i know who have say NO. It is soooo slow compared to what we have now. Bearing in mind that i am talking about guys that really do know what they are talking about.

I'm also not convinced that all of the industry wants it - i know a rep from one very "high profile" company is dead against it, and presents some very valid points about why it is wrong for the paying racers.

I guess time will tell. Personlly i like the speed that we have now, and don't really want to slow the cars down. However, maybe we do have to do something, i can accept that, i just don't think 4 cell is the right thing.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:23 PM   #134
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P.S. If my 14 year old daughter can pilot a Stock Sedan and is having a BLAST with it, why would you change that? All she says to me is "Dad, you've got to make it faster!". What do you think she will say when I rip two cells out of her car??????

Edited because she is 14 and if she saw me listing her age as 13 she would kill me. LOL
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:29 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Oh, god "big brother knows best?" That's the attitude from ROAR? If so, then ROAR is completely dead to me. If I ever gain influence in this hobby, I will do my best to discredit them and bring about their demise.
You dont read very well do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
First of all I am speaking for myself not ROAR
and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Thats said there is no ROAR proposal I am aware of for 4 cells in 2007. Its going to happen at the independant races before it happens at ROAR races.
I dont want to pick on you but seriously you have misunderstood and missed things stated on this very page. You are proving me right about how people argue without fully comprehending what they are discussing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
In the US we have a representative government. Why, because our fore fathers wisely saw that the avearge joe is too wrapped up in his own underinformed and self centered world to be able to make rational decisions about difficult matters involving the overall good of the country.
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