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Old 10-10-2006, 11:58 AM   #61
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[QUOTE=PW]Opening the rules will make things more reliable and they will make equipment that won't fail, but be prepaired to pay double for a motor/speedo combo.

What you mean like the brushless that i'm gonna get anyway.......
Seriously why bother with 4 cell if we can just have a 12t with better magnets that won't blow.
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:21 PM   #62
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[QUOTE=Robfo]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PW
Opening the rules will make things more reliable and they will make equipment that won't fail, but be prepaired to pay double for a motor/speedo combo.

What you mean like the brushless that i'm gonna get anyway.......
Seriously why bother with 4 cell if we can just have a 12t with better magnets that won't blow.
How much you willing to pay for some special mag Mod ???

i thought it was to get more drivers into Mod not keep them away
That gap between 19t & mod will be even bigger


And looking at the last couple of post`s on the other forum it looks like the 1978 design of a Mod motor is the weakest link & going 4 cell is not a good idea !!!

anyway while we discuss this none of this is going through coz the AGM has it`s list of proposal`s, so it be another year gone by then another year to see if it works & by then we have plastic batterys & composite Motors with Alloy Wire instead of copper

Takes to long to get things done over here , 1 year to argue 1 year to get it going another bloody year to enjoy it (3 years , 3 Bloody years;;; unstable market is not what we need right now

Giddy up
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:31 PM   #63
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[QUOTE=MR JOLLY]
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Originally Posted by Robfo

How much you willing to pay for some special mag Mod ???

i thought it was to get more drivers into Mod not keep them away
That gap between 19t & mod will be even bigger


And looking at the last couple of post`s on the other forum it looks like the 1978 design of a Mod motor is the weakest link & going 4 cell is not a good idea !!!

anyway while we discuss this none of this is going through coz the AGM has it`s list of proposal`s, so it be another year gone by then another year to see if it works & by then we have plastic batterys & composite Motors with Alloy Wire instead of copper

Takes to long to get things done over here , 1 year to argue 1 year to get it going another bloody year to enjoy it (3 years , 3 Bloody years;;; unstable market is not what we need right now

Giddy up
Lolly,

I found a place where you can get a motor with neodinium magnets for about 70, and that's not a proper manufacturer... The proposal to make rare earth magnets legal HAS been put in for the AGM so hopefully it'll go through.

And as the owner of a certain forum says, how much you want to spend ? 90 on one motor that'll last you th whole season, or 59 (x3) for 3 motors that'll eventually blow up ?
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:55 PM   #64
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So does anyone actually know how much a rare earth mag motor would be retailed at, surely this is something the motor manufacturers have looked into.
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:24 PM   #65
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You guys dont know what you are asking for and dont understand the realities of designing and manufacturing a rare earth motor.

Why is there a proposal to allow rare earths inot brushed motors...its just a gesture proposed months ago from the BL manufacturers meant to reduce resistance from brushed motor manufacturers to allowing sintered rotor in BL motors. There is no longer resistance to this as everyone has a BL program in development now.

It is a useless gesture as making a rare earth motor will require a full redesign to make it work. No one is particulary interested in shelling out the $$ for this as most see that BL as the future and thats where they are spending their development dollars.

Even if a company did try to do this they will have a hard time finding a factory to do this. Reedy and Orion don't always get to do what they want to do. They still have to deal with what Sagami is will to do for them.
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:46 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
You guys dont know what you are asking for and dont understand the realities of designing and manufacturing a rare earth motor.

Why is there a proposal to allow rare earths inot brushed motors...its just a gesture proposed months ago from the BL manufacturers meant to reduce resistance from brushed motor manufacturers to allowing sintered rotor in BL motors. There is no longer resistance to this as everyone has a BL program in development now.

It is a useless gesture as making a rare earth motor will require a full redesign to make it work. No one is particulary interested in shelling out the $$ for this as most see that BL as the future and thats where they are spending their development dollars.

Even if a company did try to do this they will have a hard time finding a factory to do this. Reedy and Orion don't always get to do what they want to do. They still have to deal with what Sagami is will to do for them.
Adrian,

With all due respect, a brushed motor with rare earth will smoke any brushless, hell they already smoke them with ceramic magnets, only to blow up because of design/pricing limitations. Yes they will need design changes, but not major ones and they will benefit from better magnets even without modifications, just not as much as they could.

And before you say anything else, the proposal was put in by a complete privateer so no manufacturer involved, the idea is to put brushed and brushless on a similar level as far as magnets are concerned and may the fastest/more reliable design win, as right now, none are reliable anymore. Brushed blow up and brushless blow up or shut down.

So why would sagami refuse to put rare earth magnets in their cans, surely TOP are a big enough customer of them, especially as if brushless take over the market, sagami will be losing a lot of turnover...

B/L will be the future only if brushed aren't given the means to go forward, and this starts with allowing rare earth.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:10 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
The good thing is even running hard enough to dump IB4200WC cells in 5 min the comm still looks like you just broke it in. Motor are not failing, speedos are not shutting down, cars are more driveable, tire wear is less and the racing is better.
That is all well and good but we will still find it hard to attract new blood after all this as long as we continue to charge $500+ for the chassis of the month.

You will notice not too many battery matchers/manufacturers are against 4 cell, why? Because they now they stand to make more money if it all goes to four cell. How will they make more money selling less batteries? They won't be selling less batteries they know they will actually sell more. Now how will the racer spend less yet the manufacturers sell more? Exactly, the racers will end up buying more not less. Customer "A" buys a ready to run buys a couple of stick packs then decides to race. Does he use his stick packs or break down his stick packs into four cells? Nope he will replace everything. Also you think the days of battery wars are over? Go to four cell and prepare to find those magic numbers again.

We need to limit chassis costs and to do this the rules need to be written to limit certain materials. Yes you can run a plastic chassis in 19T or Mod will you win? The concesus is no way which takes the beginner out of racing all together.

Is there beginner box stock classes? Sure but there is also people born with 11 toes. There needs to be a more cost effective means to race an R?C car , that is if racers want to see it grow. If they do not care and they just are in it for their own personal need for a bowling trophy then leave it like it is and get the trophy now before racing dies all together.

Remmber bottom line the Seasoned veteran can wax all day about what the industry needs and what works and what doesn't but the newcomers come from the bashers and the bashers see things from a much different perspective.

All manufacturers need to provide more affordable formula and the organizers need to create a healthier environment for these formulas.

Here are some steps that maybe should be considered that I haven't seen come up.

Insertless tires with out inner belting: no more worry about having the magic insert and cost goes down because the tire no longer has a belt plus there is not longer a need for an insert.

540 motors are too big: Look at a car now a days look at the electronics look at some of the new battery technology, now look at the hunkin beer keg we have as motor maybe it is time to switch to a 380 size motor? Think of the lower CG the lower over all weight (weight is wear and less wear means less cost)

2WD: 4WD was great and needed 10 years ago when tires were terrible but tires are much better now as well as suspension geometries. I have incouraged some drivers at my local track (Tamiya USA) to run a front drive class and they all love it the cars go fast enough and the maintenance is very minimal as well as the cost, plus the cars are extremely easy to drive some feel even more the the 4WD's. No belts no shafts, one diff. There is a reason Mini Coopers are popping up everywhere. Have FWD be the entry class and for those with more skill have them run RWD.

Brushless and Li-Po are to technologies that are coming fast and those that think it is not a good idea have there own agendas. I work for arguably the largest Ni-MH battery and brushed motor maker worldwide and we would seem to have the most to lose by this change. But we are excited about the challenge of going forward into a new era of R/C. We know we need to innovate this sector or watch it leave us behind. In the end a set-up using brushless and li-po will be much easier on the user and provide the highest performance over time with the least amount of maintenance. It's also becoming far more cost effective after a short period of time. Are there some issues still to be worked out? Of course there are, but like everything else in time the dust will settle and there will be a standard set.

Then in 10 years we can complain about how transparent aluminum is making chassis too heavy, cold fusion is illegal and dangerous and too many cars are bending the space time continue-um. LOL!
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:23 PM   #68
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A brushed motor with rare earth will smoke any brushless, hell they already smoke them with ceramic magnets, only to blow up because of design/pricing limitations. Yes they will need design changes, but not major ones and they will benefit from better magnets even without modifications, just not as much as they could.

No offense taken ...but you need to ask your self...where do I get this stuff I post here? I get it by talking to Rick Hohwart, Sean Cochran, Oscar Jansen, Bob Novak, Ernie Provetti, etc.....

With all due respect, where have you heard that a rare earth BR motor will smoke a BL seeing as there are none in existance right now that run appropriately in r/c cars?


And before you say anything else, the proposal was put in by a complete privateer so no manufacturer involved, the idea is to put brushed and brushless on a similar level as far as magnets are concerned and may the fastest/more reliable design win, as right now, none are reliable anymore. Brushed blow up and brushless blow up or shut down.

What sanctioning body are you talkling about ROAR, BRCA or EFRA? The ROAR proposal did not come from a privateer. I know, I am on the ROAR ExCom

So why would sagami refuse to put rare earth magnets in their cans, surely TOP are a big enough customer of them, especially as if brushless take over the market, sagami will be losing a lot of turnover...

Becuase there are things they just refuse to do. Ever wonder why there is no Reedy Stock motor? How about ROAR legal 19T motor from some one other than Trinity? Sagami refused to make the Reedy motor that Reedy wanted and they say they cannot make a motor in accordance to ROAR 19T rules. Why, who knows...they just say they can't (or won't) and Reedy and Orion do not have the ability to go somewhere else. Why, because only Sagami and TokyoMec have acess to the good TDK magents we use. Becuase of this they will probably be resistant to making rare earth motors with commonly available Neo magnets. They have the market cornered and they will not want to mess that up.

B/L will be the future only if brushed aren't given the means to go forward, and this starts with allowing rare earth

This is a bit silly. No matter what BR motors are created they will still need to be rebrushed, comms will need to be cut, maintenece will always be more than a BL. This is not what racers want..heck most guys dont even maintain their cars properly!
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Old 10-10-2006, 04:23 PM   #69
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Adrian, I thought it was clear enough the proposal I was talking about is a BRCA proposal. Matter of fact, I had no idea a similar proposal had been made to ROAR.

Re-motor performance, it's funny what you're saying, i just read from another forum, from a very respectable driver, who has contacts in the industry, including one of the best motor manufacturers of the moment, that a brushed built for the same price as a brushless motor will be faster and 100% reliable.

As for ROAR legal 19T motors, it's all down to whether the motor builders want them to be ROAR legal or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with can manufacturers, all the cans of all the 19T motors follow the ROAR regulations APART from the Z-Zone, due to the position of the cooling holes. How can I be sure of that ? Because the rules for the BRCA 19T spec has been copied/paste from the ROAR rules. The only differences are that BRCA allows both hemmi and crossover wound motors, where ROAR only allow crossover. NOW you telling me Reedy and Orion can't have crossover-wound motors ? I don't think so, since at least Orion makes a 27T that is crossover wound (I have one on my shelf). Or is it just that they don't care about having ROAR legal 19T motors ? In any case, nothing to do with sagami's cans.

In any case, sagami will have to follow or loose the market, simple. If B/L takes over, sagami loses the market. If rare earth magnets on brushed motors take over, then sagami either takes the turn, or loose the market. They are not the only can manufacturer, and since TDK magnets won't be of any use anymore, they won't be the best anymore, if you see what i mean.

As for why I think brushless won't take over if a new breed of brushed is finally developed it's very simple, b/l motors are very good, but where they excell is at constant RPM, you can load them a lot more without losing as much RPMs, when a brushed stalls. They are not good as spooling up however, not as good as brushed motors at least, and that's the use we make of our motors. Planes on the contrary, make a very good use of brushless because they use them at near constant RPM.
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Old 10-10-2006, 07:00 PM   #70
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As for ROAR legal 19T motors, it's all down to whether the motor builders want them to be ROAR legal or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with can manufacturers, all the cans of all the 19T motors follow the ROAR regulations APART from the Z-Zone, due to the position of the cooling holes. How can I be sure of that ? Because the rules for the BRCA 19T spec has been copied/paste from the ROAR rules. The only differences are that BRCA allows both hemmi and crossover wound motors, where ROAR only allow crossover. NOW you telling me Reedy and Orion can't have crossover-wound motors ? I don't think so, since at least Orion makes a 27T that is crossover wound (I have one on my shelf). Or is it just that they don't care about having ROAR legal 19T motors ? In any case, nothing to do with sagami's cans..
You are right it not about the cans. Sagami cannot wind 19g cross wrap arms without having excessive problems with shorting of the wire. This is why there are no ROAR legal 19T's.
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Old 10-15-2006, 12:27 PM   #71
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Well my eyes are open to the idea, my self and Jason B.(bmi) ran 4 cell touring today he ran the 4.5 and I ran the 3.5 brushless motor. The car handle great and the speeds felt a like a fast 19t motor. I ran it with a old 3700 battery pack but I couldnt make the 5 minute run and I was loosing my steering. I then ran a 4200 pack and easily made the 5 minutes. I was running a 8.23 FDR with the 4cells and it was still fairly quick and the motor came off the track around 123 degrees. Im going to try a receiver pack( from my 1/12 th scale) to see if it helps with the steering issues , I ran a spektrum powercap on the receiver and it helped.

I can see this becoming a popular class.
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Old 10-15-2006, 01:41 PM   #72
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Ok, what do the stock guys do once we go 4 cell? Are we going to come up with a 12 turn locked endbell? Or is all going to be run what you brung?

My local track is Stock only (occasionally we get a layout that we can go 19t) but it is just too small for mod. (we all know his cause we've tried running mod.)
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Old 10-15-2006, 01:46 PM   #73
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Ok, what do the stock guys do once we go 4 cell? Are we going to come up with a 12 turn locked endbell? Or is all going to be run what you brung?

My local track is Stock only (occasionally we get a layout that we can go 19t) but it is just too small for mod. (we all know his cause we've tried running mod.)
How about 4-cell 19 turn?
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Old 10-15-2006, 01:58 PM   #74
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4 cell 19 turn would more than likely run identicle as what a good stocker is now.my car with the 4.5 was geared at 8.5 and was faster than my real good 19 turns.the cars handle extremely well in 4 cell due to less weight.no one could believe that it was a 4 cell car.it was fast.my brushless motor came off the track at 140 degrees when driving it extremely hard.if i drove it like this in 6 cell i would have thermaled after 3 minutes.
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Old 10-15-2006, 02:04 PM   #75
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I race at the same track as vtl1180ny and some decide to run 19 turn motors during practice to learn how to control their car better. When it comes time to race they just through in a stock motor and race.
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