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Old 10-09-2006, 12:06 AM   #31
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ok all this talk about a 4 cell class im sorry is really kind of funny. the companies that make these cars and the equip to go with them make them to be used with 6 cell packs to start with! if you want a 4 cell sedan then get a yokomo mini mr4 tc! ye i can see the less ware and tare on the motor! so lightin up the springs on it one step! would be about the same thing! and im also with all the guys that already stated that mod is ment to be a fast class! why would you want to run a fast class and then slow your car down by only running for cells.

for those of you who stated it would keep the cost down for the new guy! i really dont see how. for a good race pack to make the amount of run time needed on a 4 cell would cost about $70 give or take a bit! not that same kid could come in to a store and get a matched 6 cell stick pack for about $35 so im sorry i really dont see where the savings is going to come in.

And one more thing! this is a HOBBY!!!! its what your suposed to spend you extra money on!!!!! its what you do for fun!!!! witch is somthing most racers have forgotin!!!!! its all about winning anymore!!!!!
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:23 AM   #32
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for a good race pack to make the amount of run time needed on a 4 cell would cost about $70 give or take a bit! not that same kid could come in to a store and get a matched 6 cell stick pack for about $35 so im sorry i really dont see where the savings is going to come in.


they are saying no runtime issue`s even running 7 turn
you still have 4200 cap but @4.8v ,instead of 4200 @7.2

also none of the UK `testers` have had power problems with servo`s or recievers & PT`s all running together
speedo`s were fine to
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:14 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onroad dude

for a good race pack to make the amount of run time needed on a 4 cell would cost about $70 give or take a bit! not that same kid could come in to a store and get a matched 6 cell stick pack for about $35 so im sorry i really dont see where the savings is going to come in.

This is a FALSE Statement. Going to 4 cell does NOT reduce runtime...Just voltage. It would not require any better batteries than 6 cell does.

And if your shop is charging 70.00 for a 4 cell pack then they wont be around very long as they are ripping the customers off!!

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Old 10-09-2006, 08:54 AM   #34
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Jolly, 27t is not fast enought its downright boring, but it is a good class for small clubs and beginners.
There's no reason why 6cell 27 can't stay in the BRCA rules but not be run as a national class, so that means little jonny can turn up to a club and race his tamiya with the stickpack.
Having run 19t 6 cell all year i've got really good at skimming and changing brushes which is not the most fun is it.
Anyway i have run 4cell mod before but tbh it was only a couple of meetings so i'm gonna do some more testing so i have a more informed opinion for the AGM.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:30 AM   #35
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What is killing TC? They are too damn fast!!! Even stock.

New racers show up at local carpet tracks with these cars and ask the top drivers what they need to do. They set their cars up and gear them as they have been told. Then they go out and slam them into the wall and break $20 in parts.

This isn't an opinion, this is what I've seen. These new drivers show up for one or two weeks and leave. It's not that it might be too expensive, it just isn't fun when you break your car after only a few laps. So, they go back to parking lot bashing or other non-racing R/C stuff.

We are just now starting to see people experiment with 4-cells. So far, we've had some interesting results. At this point, it seems more promising than the first oval tests for 4-cell.

One interesting thing is the fact that brushless is coming on pretty hard. Stock and 19t as we know it may be gone in just a few years. Consider adjustments to these motors along with the change to 4-cells and who knows what will happen. I think in the end, we will have an entry class that is a little slower than the current stock, and a reasonable spec mod (19t) class. As for mod, who knows what will happen. I'm sure it will slow down, but we know how creative these racers can be.

Remember, they made this same switch in oval (with all the same doom and gloom predictions) and it's been pretty successful. Speeds dropped for a while, but now they are faster than before the switch. Engineering changes to the cars, and education have made incredible advancements. The same will happen with TC.


Give it a chance. Let these pioneers get us some real-world results from their testing and who knows.... we might see our hobby rebound! I'd love to get back to the days when you had to show up early for your local club races or you wouldn't get a pit spot.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:01 AM   #36
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Old 10-09-2006, 11:32 AM   #37
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Let me use a non RC car related example to combat the "speed" issue. Not having the fastest cars does not mean its less fun-as long as everyone is not going as fast.

IN karts I ran a class called Piston Port Can class. It is restricted via the small muffler, so same motor, clutch, chassis as every other class, just less HP. So in terms of RC-same thing. Same esc, chassis, body etc. just less juice. Our class usually saw races as deep as 12 cars racing for the same position!!

The main benefit was with lower HP-you cannot make a single driving mistake as that will cuase you to lose not just one position, but you could expect to be freightrained by the whole drafting pack!!

Now for the speed-I ran data acquisition for a number of years and one time for fun I compared my lap traces at Grattan (in MI) against my brother running in one of the fastest 100cc motor classes (My bros many times IKF duffy, Grandnational, WKA and Daytone Champ) and guess what-in corners that required slowing-my corner speeds was higher than my bros!! I cannot tell you all the times and races lost because I got stuck behind a kart from a faster class who would rocket down the stright to overslow and park it in the corners.

So-long story short-in stock class (19t w/ 4-cells) if we slow the car terminal velocity and ability to accelerate-it doesnt mean its more boring, but if your a hack driver you'll know it as you wont have the ponies to catch up after sliding sideways (rubber tires) or driing to hard into corners (foams). It will take time to adapt, but the racing might be better and the newbies will most certainley break less and become better drivers.


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Old 10-09-2006, 11:38 AM   #38
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ooop-this is about 4-cell Mod not 4-cell stock, but I guess whats a thread on rctech that doesnt turn into an argument about something else???
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
This is a FALSE Statement. Going to 4 cell does NOT reduce runtime...Just voltage. It would not require any better batteries than 6 cell does.

And if your shop is charging 70.00 for a 4 cell pack then they wont be around very long as they are ripping the customers off!!

EA
Just going to 4-cell without making any other changes to the motor or gearing will increase run time.

But by going to 4-cells you are reducing the total energy available (1/3rd less). Once you have made adjustments to motors (fewer turns, more timing, etc) and gearing, you will end up with less power AND less run time.

We have done extenseive testing in Japan with 4-cell mod touring and results are that making 5-minute run time is a struggle. The cars are capable of much higher speeds than achieved with 4-cells, so the natural tendency is tune motors for more power (after all, the cars can handle 6-cell speeds)resulting in this loss of run time.
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:53 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
What is killing TC? They are too damn fast!!! Even stock.
This is true! The cars HANDLE to well.

The only difference between stock, 19, and mod touring is the speed on the straight and acceleration. But they are all pretty much the same speed in the corners.

I don't know about others, but the straight parts of the tracks are easiest for me. If you want to make cars easier to drive, you need to make them slower in the hard parts of the track - the corners.
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Just going to 4-cell without making any other changes to the motor or gearing will increase run time.

But by going to 4-cells you are reducing the total energy available (1/3rd less). Once you have made adjustments to motors (fewer turns, more timing, etc) and gearing, you will end up with less power AND less run time.

We have done extenseive testing in Japan with 4-cell mod touring and results are that making 5-minute run time is a struggle. The cars are capable of much higher speeds than achieved with 4-cells, so the natural tendency is tune motors for more power (after all, the cars can handle 6-cell speeds)resulting in this loss of run time.
As well as the 4 cell debate in the UK and Europe, the BRCA are probably going to try and limit the cell capacity to 4300.
This makes sense, if they are struggling to last, they'll have to reduce motor timing's or use more motor winds etc. Just imagine, people will have to win using driving skills and relying less on technology. I have raced someone who used a 6t with 4cell and ropey 3300's

When this debate first started I had doubts about it all, but I'm quickly becoming in favour, having raced against some etc.

I have avoided Mod as I'm worried about the strain on my old ESC etc, however, if we move to 4 cell I may well make the jump up.

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Old 10-09-2006, 01:17 PM   #42
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There is too much bad information being spread around in the UK.

A 4 cell pack in the UK in 2006 is 41.00 and in 2007 it will still be
41.00, BRCA MAXIMUM price limit.
(Unless battery manufacturers raise their cost).

At the recent KO Grand Prix, I saw 3 19T motors burn out in one final
alone and a few modifieds through winds on the straight and lock up.

Is the a club in the World racing, could say that there number of racers
have not reduced and no new young bload has started racing, because
of costs to go fast.
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:23 PM   #43
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Skiddins

It will be impossible to limit the battery capacity to a maximum of 4300.

First of all the capacity of a pack now is probably 100 - 200mAh higher
than it said on the heat shrink.

Manuafacturers are always trying to increase the capacity of their cell
because there main use is for power tools and not TC,s.

If we do limit capacity then in a year or two you will not be able to buy
a pack of 4200 or 4300, look at the problem with 27T motors this year.
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:35 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins
Just imagine, people will have to win using driving skills and relying less on technology.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for this.

The problem is it is not being done now, so why would it be done with 4-cells? Let me explain.

The problem now is that motors and ESCs fail with current techology. The easiest and simple solutions are:

1 - drive better. By better I mean using less brake and easier throttle movements. Drive more smoothly and you will not generate as much heat.

2 - use a less powerful motor. If you are unable to make electronics last with a 7 turn, you either do #1, or use a 8 or 9 turn motors.

3 - use fewer cells - 6-cells is the maximum allowed. if a driver can do better with 5-cells, use 5.

I am totally in favor of placing more emphasis on the driver's abilities. It is not being done now so I see no reason for it to begin with 4-cells. The same drivers that refuse to smooth their driving or run less powerful motors are the same drivers that are going ot be struggling to see the end of a five minute race.
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Old 10-09-2006, 01:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livingston
Skiddins


Manuafacturers are always trying to increase the capacity of their cell
because there main use is for power tools and not TC,s.
I wouldn`t be so sure about that statment,
Put a couple of c-cells in your torch & see what happens .
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