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Old 10-16-2006, 08:37 PM   #151
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Eddie, weren't you and Big Jim (RIP) working on a 5 segment arm?
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Old 10-16-2006, 08:55 PM   #152
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Yes, we were.....we were waiting for the rule ammendments that President Wilson promised to us......which never happened.....and Mike Queller has done nothing since being in office......well, he didn't approve unavailable brushless motors 2 weeks before nationals......oh wait, he did, he was vice president at the time....

The arms are on the way from sagami.......the picture is of the can jim orginally did....the magnets were half the size of a regular FB9...we put a regular arm in it.....motor made 40 watts more at every stage of the dyno than a regular can with the same arm.....now imagine an arm with more material....

Later EddieO
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:09 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Nobody is eager? I guess I am nobody now.....

And there are other companies who can make motors.....sagami isn't the only game in town now....plenty of chinese companies out there willing to do work....not to mention we have already seen a partial depature from sagami by Orion and Checkpoint with the endbells....

And the TDK magnets can be bought by anyone directly from TDK.....its a magnet in there standard catalog....FB9.

Sagami has nice fat 5 segment armatures......and I have some on the way.....

I talked to Oscar about the 4 cell thing.......he seems to think it doesn't do much but eliminate Lipo from the market.....IR is a bigger problem than the voltage in his mind......after a little testing, I agree with him.....

Motor wind limits don't work......the motors actually wear out faster, not to mention cheating runs rampant.....

Open technology rules for motors can fix stuff from blowing up......Speed Controls simply need to get BIGGER, so they can fit bigger more pricey fets....

I have never figured out why people want to go slow......I know none of my top dogs want to go slower.....probably just the pussies who can't keep up.

And while the tekin motor ran well......the Novak's ran just as well.....this was a very small track.....certainly not National Level race conditions.....not a really good comparison.....not to mention, from my understanding the tekin unit won't be ROAR legal....

And for the record.....Brushless and Lipos are not going to fix these supposed problems........you are blind if you think that.....expanding ALL techonology is what does it.....no one item is a fix.....

Tired of this crap from ROAR?? IFMAR??? I am running for ROAR President.....make the vote and members will be involved in major decisions like this under my watch....

Later EddieO
well on page 41 of the ROAR rule book 8.7.5.1 states that sensored and sensorless motors are allowed , so my guess is that tekin is legal.
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:16 PM   #154
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A. they are delta wound from what I am told.....and they sure looked delta wound when the one was shown to me and Charlie by Jim.....but maybe I am blind....

B. They have sintered magnet rotors, which at this point are not legal.....

Jim from tekin was very forthcoming in a post on RCtech that his motor would not be ROAR legal.......and that he didn't really didn't care...

Later EddieO
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:20 PM   #155
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WOW Eddie! You just gave me a good reason to vote. Thanks! Count 1 more for you.
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:29 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckman996
Exactly...

As with any elite level of competition dealing with machinary when pushing something to its absolute limit, there is a significant risk of failure ... the top drivers are willing to take this risk - and they should. It is through these failures that we - the regular consumer, gets to see what this equipment is capable of. These trials also show the manufacturers what upgrades need to be made to ensure that this equipment will work at the highest level.

This is exactly the point behind a lot of these discussions.

The ELITE are telling us what is right for everyone. These are the people who have been driving for quite some time and have spent many hours and many dollars getting their cars prepared for racing.

Now, what percentage of the people in the HOBBY are of this elite level?

I've been racing for nearly 17 years now. When I started, we had 1200mah batteries with usually 1.12 volts and an IR around 30. We also had full stack armatures and stand up brushes in stock. When a new racer joined, a car (any class - pan, off road, whatever) was somewhat slow and controllable. It was a good place to start racing and learning.

Now, our entry level class is still Stock, but we have motors that run like a 14 turn mod did way back when I started. Is that were we want our racers to start?

We don't need to hear about 540 classes. We don't need MORE classes, we need our current classes redefined so that the Stock entry level class becomes that again. In turn, that will probably slow all the classes down, but that's just part of it. With LiPo and brushless on the horizon, who knows what the unlimited class can be.

When power gets out of hand, something needs to be done. NASCAR had the same problem. Why do you think they are limited to 358ci motors? Back in the late 60's, they were running 429ci Hemis and other big block monsters. But wait, it's racing. Why limit them? Aren't they just pushing their equipment to the limit? If NASCAR hadn't started limiting power, we'd be seeing cars going 250+ mph. Sounds like fun, until you see all the new problems that it would create.

We don't face the same physical risks in R/C, but we rely on the entry level racer for the future of our hobby. The elite racers don't even come close to keeping the doors open at any hobby shop and race track. It's the bashers and the weekend warriors that never race a big event that pay the bills.

Sure, the 6-cell packs they have now won't be legal for racing in a new 4-cell class. But, that is the same problem we had back when they first banned 7-cells in modified off-road. People had to replace their batteries, the same thing would happen here. It's just a racing expense, we've all been there.


I really, truely hope that the stock class becomes too slow for the elite racers. It's time for stock to be given back to the new racers.
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:31 PM   #157
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The most confusing part about all this is everyone keeps saying they want to go faster and 4 cell mod is stupid, but the smallest class is the fastest one ďMODĒ. Where the hell are all of you when I go club racing wanting to race mod (sucks racing with the same 3 people every time)? And please do not use the expense excuse because I guarantee you the stock and 19turn racers spend WAY more money on motors and batteries! Thatís how you gain the advantage in stock and 19turn! Why do you think there are countless OEM motor companies only selling stock/19 turn motors? Props to Brood for doing mods!

Youíre right EddieO; what few mod guys are left donít want to go slower (including me), but tell me the honest to godís truth why 99% of the racers donít run modÖthey are to Fín fast and they canít drive them? Letís face it, people want to be competitive and not destroy their cars; thatís why they race stock and 19turn.

Like Kevin said, the few club racers that do race mod donít have any trouble with heat, brushes, comms, etc, because they donít push the cars hard enough. Mod motors/batteries should last months under those conditions?

BTW...I'm voting for you EddieO for the same reason I voted for Ernie! Something needs to be changed in ROAR for better or worse and I think you will most certainly do that
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:34 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Yes, we were.....we were waiting for the rule ammendments that President Wilson promised to us......which never happened.....and Mike Queller has done nothing since being in office......well, he didn't approve unavailable brushless motors 2 weeks before nationals......oh wait, he did, he was vice president at the time....

The arms are on the way from sagami.......the picture is of the can jim orginally did....the magnets were half the size of a regular FB9...we put a regular arm in it.....motor made 40 watts more at every stage of the dyno than a regular can with the same arm.....now imagine an arm with more material....

Later EddieO
Now thats what I'm talking about

Brushless are powerful and relatively maintenance free and all but I do like to tinker with my brushed motors
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:35 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
A. they are delta wound from what I am told.....and they sure looked delta wound when the one was shown to me and Charlie by Jim.....but maybe I am blind....

B. They have sintered magnet rotors, which at this point are not legal.....

Jim from tekin was very forthcoming in a post on RCtech that his motor would not be ROAR legal.......and that he didn't really didn't care...

Later EddieO
my bad eddie i forgot about the sintered magnets
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:36 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
This is exactly the point behind a lot of these discussions.

The ELITE are telling us what is right for everyone. These are the people who have been driving for quite some time and have spent many hours and many dollars getting their cars prepared for racing.

Now, what percentage of the people in the HOBBY are of this elite level?

I've been racing for nearly 17 years now. When I started, we had 1200mah batteries with usually 1.12 volts and an IR around 30. We also had full stack armatures and stand up brushes in stock. When a new racer joined, a car (any class - pan, off road, whatever) was somewhat slow and controllable. It was a good place to start racing and learning.

Now, our entry level class is still Stock, but we have motors that run like a 14 turn mod did way back when I started. Is that were we want our racers to start?

We don't need to hear about 540 classes. We don't need MORE classes, we need our current classes redefined so that the Stock entry level class becomes that again. In turn, that will probably slow all the classes down, but that's just part of it. With LiPo and brushless on the horizon, who knows what the unlimited class can be.

When power gets out of hand, something needs to be done. NASCAR had the same problem. Why do you think they are limited to 358ci motors? Back in the late 60's, they were running 429ci Hemis and other big block monsters. But wait, it's racing. Why limit them? Aren't they just pushing their equipment to the limit? If NASCAR hadn't started limiting power, we'd be seeing cars going 250+ mph. Sounds like fun, until you see all the new problems that it would create.

We don't face the same physical risks in R/C, but we rely on the entry level racer for the future of our hobby. The elite racers don't even come close to keeping the doors open at any hobby shop and race track. It's the bashers and the weekend warriors that never race a big event that pay the bills.

Sure, the 6-cell packs they have now won't be legal for racing in a new 4-cell class. But, that is the same problem we had back when they first banned 7-cells in modified off-road. People had to replace their batteries, the same thing would happen here. It's just a racing expense, we've all been there.


I really, truely hope that the stock class becomes too slow for the elite racers. It's time for stock to be given back to the new racers.
Beautiful post!!!!! Quote of the year
Quote:
I really, truely hope that the stock class becomes too slow for the elite racers. It's time for stock to be given back to the new racers
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:40 PM   #161
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Well, I think a lot of them still run stock because of three reasons.....

1. Some companies are TELLING there guys to run stock......they want the class WON at all costs.....using a C main mod guy to win stock helps sell more kits....

2. And most of those guys have a tough time giving up the 1-2k in win bonus money that companies are paying.....

3. A lot of these guys are scared to move up and lose their spot on the travel team to a stock guy who is winning......

And I guess some of them just aren't good enough to handle it........it sure is a tough mountain to climb to beat guys like Toso, Dumas, Paulie......its very tough to crack into the main.....

And STOCK was never a beginner class.....it was an equalized playing field class......stock was a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP class orginally....Jay Halsey's World Title was in STOCK......beginners should not be racing stock at the national level....

Later EddieO
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:41 PM   #162
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are you guys f***ing kidden me , 4 cell mod . Hey sak it up and end the f***ing tea party thread.
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:44 PM   #163
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Well, the Sintered magnet thing is not the big of deal, cause I fully expect them to be legal shortly.....I am pretty sure it is Delta wound though....which is not going to be changed that I have heard....

Later EddieO
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:47 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Well, I think a lot of them still run stock because of three reasons.....

1. Some companies are TELLING there guys to run stock......they want the class WON at all costs.....using a C main mod guy to win stock helps sell more kits....

2. And most of those guys have a tough time giving up the 1-2k in win bonus money that companies are paying.....

3. A lot of these guys are scared to move up and lose their spot on the travel team to a stock guy who is winning......

And I guess some of them just aren't good enough to handle it........it sure is a tough mountain to climb to beat guys like Toso, Dumas, Paulie......its very tough to crack into the main.....

And STOCK was never a beginner class.....it was an equalized playing field class......stock was a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP class orginally....Jay Halsey's World Title was in STOCK......beginners should not be racing stock at the national level....

Later EddieO
If this is a response to my post; Once again you are 100% right! But I wasn't speaking of the sponsored guys what's so ever. I'm talking about 99% of your customers that race stock/19 turn on a weekly basis.
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:50 PM   #165
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This isn't Nascar.....its not planes, its not boats......there are actually PEOPLE in those Nascars.....a little better reason to slow them down, it certainly had nothing to do with costs or equipment failure.

Stock needs to return to the PRIVATEER class.......not the beginner class....beginners race in novice....and when they step up, they are a racer like everyone else...

Later EddieO
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