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Old 10-16-2006, 04:32 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Advil
What do you think she will say when I rip two cells out of her car??????
She will say "Dad, I want to run 19T or Open Mod".

There will be a next step no matter what we run 4 or 6 cells.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:51 PM   #137
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Sorry Adrian, but the Oval thing doesnt wash.... quite simply the cars (TC and oval/12th) are just too different by design, so there really isn't any point in trying to compare them.

Oh and just another thing... Oval is miniscule in the UK

This subject has been a very big debate over here in the UK... and we're still no close to a decision for the next season... It'll be lively AGM.
http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25890 (if futurereal doesn't mind). I think you'll find all sort of views in there... including our current national champ (Chris Grainger) and the 12th world champ (Dave Spashett)... I'll let you find out their oppinions.
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Old 10-16-2006, 05:12 PM   #138
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Adrian I'm wondering where have you heard that most of the idustry wants it. Everyone I asked were either dead against it or thinking it wouldn't be a solution to the actual problem.

The reason is tha we'll end up using 5 and 4T motors instead of 7T and they'll pull more amps than the actual 7T, be nearly as quick as the actual 7T, but will destroy the batteries as the amp draw will be too much, and destroy themselves at the same time. This is apparently what the top drivers in Japan were experiencing while testing in preparation for the JRMCA (that was posted a while ago but I believe is still valid).

Also, there might not be many people racing 1/8th in the USA, but there are countries where it's a LOT bigger than electric. I can name France as a very good example, so going very FAST with an overpowered car does attract people...

The only real reason is to try and stop blowing motors, and for that there are a few solutions: update the brushed motor technology, increase the race duration so it'll actually be impossible to last with a 7T, or rely on the industry to make B/L systems that don't thermals after 3 minutes (Tekin springs to mind as they just finished 3rd at a 24hrs endurance race with their b/l prototype and had no problem whatsoever with it).
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Old 10-16-2006, 05:15 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
How man guys run 1/8th compared to other classes? Even oval racers outnumber 1/8th racers. Why becuase they are crazy fast and a lot of guy are flat out scared to run them. That said..the guys that run them have fun but most are just barely in control.


They can do it but are you willing to pay what it will sell for? Will it fit in your current chassis...uh oh...we need to redesign the cars again
I might be wrong but there was more entries at the 1/8th "Open" On Road Nationals then there was at the Oval Nats.....150 or so racers I believe....not entries racers. There are people in all forms of racing that cant control the cars they drive....you should see the people drive micro-cars at the Red Line Raceway store in the mall and these are the slowest cars that I have ever seen driven before. So slowing down the cars isnít going to make them easier to drive. Its going to make it easier on the manufactures of ESC's as they are right now screwed in the current state of racing and they need to spend more money on making better products or they can try to get the governing body to change the rules so they donít have to make any changes. Just look at what they did with the brushless rules...they got the rules passed too quickly and there are issues associated with them. For me it looks like the same thing is happening all over again but now with 4 cells.

If a manufacture makes an ESC that can work with todayís batteries and motors and doesnít over heat and blow up Iím sure that that manufacture wouldnít be able to keep them in stock. If that manufacture was worth anything he would find a way that the ESC fit in all cars so there wouldnít be a need for a complete redesign of the current cars. There is a difference in a yearly update to a car then having to completely scrap years of work on a chassis design because of the changing of 4 cells. If I was a car manufacturer I would push to keep 6 cells so all the work that I have done over the last few years or what ever isnít now rendered useless. If any manufacturer of electronic components is looking to 4 cells saving racing itís not going to save racing itís going to save their bottom line. This is where the problem lies with people in a governing body saying that they know better then the general public. The problem lies with the current speed controllers and motorsÖ..its not that the cars are too fast its that the current electronics cant deal with the power and punishment that some people put the equipment through.

Really here you are talking about a select few that are having issues with the power and these select few also get everything for free anyway. So why do the rest of the racing public have to suffer when these few that get everything for free anyway dictate a rule change like this for us? I can club race mod with the current electronics and not have any issues. Now when the world gets together for a race and they start to push things to the limit for a race and things donít work out and stuff starts to go up in smoke whoís fault is it? Why make the rest of the racing public have to deal with the short comings of the electronic manufactures? Why not pressure these few electronic manufactures into making better products? A better product is a better product and will sell better then an inferior one so why make this change to the rules for the masses when itís a few that have this issue?
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Old 10-16-2006, 05:45 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
First of all I am speaking for myself not ROAR. However, I am on the ExCom so my opinion carries a little more clout than most.

This is a similar situation. The most of industy leaders want 4 cell. The masses want the status quo. The industry leaders, quite frankly know whats better for the hobby than you do.
And we wonder why this sector of the hobby has hit a plateau. With an attitude like the one you are displaying, you are basically saying that the "militant" opinion of this magical committee is going to determine what is best for the hobby - NOT it's consumers??????

Hereís a little marketing 101 for you:

IT IS ALWAYS THE CONSUMER THAT DETERMINES THE TRENDS!!!

For examples look at some of the largest industries Ė automotive, food, basically any CPG (consumer packaged goods) company and you will see their products are developed to meet the need of the consumer. The need of the consumer is better electronics for Modified racing so that those that choose to race in this class can do so at the level that is appropriate for the batteries that are available to support it.

Itís great that you are defending your position Ė although it leads some to question what your motives are?


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Old 10-16-2006, 05:52 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Kevin K
Really here you are talking about a select few that are having issues with the power and these select few also get everything for free anyway. So why do the rest of the racing public have to suffer when these few that get everything for free anyway dictate a rule change like this for us? I can club race mod with the current electronics and not have any issues. Now when the world gets together for a race and they start to push things to the limit for a race and things donít work out and stuff starts to go up in smoke whoís fault is it? Why make the rest of the racing public have to deal with the short comings of the electronic manufactures? Why not pressure these few electronic manufactures into making better products? A better product is a better product and will sell better then an inferior one so why make this change to the rules for the masses when itís a few that have this issue?
Exactly...

As with any elite level of competition dealing with machinary when pushing something to its absolute limit, there is a significant risk of failure ... the top drivers are willing to take this risk - and they should. It is through these failures that we - the regular consumer, gets to see what this equipment is capable of. These trials also show the manufacturers what upgrades need to be made to ensure that this equipment will work at the highest level.
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Old 10-16-2006, 06:04 PM   #142
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Adrian I'm wondering where have you heard that most of the idustry wants it. Everyone I asked were either dead against it or thinking it wouldn't be a solution to the actual problem.

Pick up the phone and talk to more people. The owners of companies not racers or distributors

The reason is tha we'll end up using 5 and 4T motors instead of 7T and they'll pull more amps than the actual 7T, be nearly as quick as the actual 7T, but will destroy the batteries as the amp draw will be too much, and destroy themselves at the same time. This is apparently what the top drivers in Japan were experiencing while testing in preparation for the JRMCA (that was posted a while ago but I believe is still valid).

Actually 4 and 5 turn motor are so electrically inefficient that they can barely run. 6 turns is the reliable limit. In testing racers have found that you can't run a 6 turn because all it does is pull a lot of amps and the cars are no faster than with a 7 turn

Also, there might not be many people racing 1/8th in the USA, but there are countries where it's a LOT bigger than electric. I can name France as a very good example, so going very FAST with an overpowered car does attract people...

The only real reason is to try and stop blowing motors, and for that there are a few solutions: update the brushed motor technologyno one seems particularly eager to do this, increase the race duration so it'll actually be impossible to last with a 7TThe Japanese tries this for a year. It was a mess. It put a huge gap between the top driver and the privateers battery wise and driving talent wise. Hara and Masami could drive with restraint and run 8T while everyone else would dump with 10T, or rely on the industry to make B/L systems that don't thermals after 3 minutes (Tekin springs to mind as they just finished 3rd at a 24hrs endurance race with their b/l prototype and had no problem whatsoever with it)... with conservative gearing. They were fast but not that fast
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Old 10-16-2006, 06:13 PM   #143
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I am regular guy. Just because I work for a company dosent mean that I can't get frustrated and lose it on people from time to time.

Sorry Syndrome


Hereís a little marketing 101 for you:

IT IS ALWAYS THE CONSUMER THAT DETERMINES THE TRENDS!!!

Here's a little reality 101 for you:

Thats what good ad agencies and marketing companies want you to think



For examples look at some of the largest industries Ė automotive, food, basically any CPG (consumer packaged goods) company and you will see their products are developed to meet the need of the consumer. The need of the consumer is better electronics for Modified racing so that those that choose to race in this class can do so at the level that is appropriate for the batteries that are available to support it.

Itís great that you are defending your position Ė although it leads some to question what your motives are?

My motives are very selfish. I want to prevent sedans from going the way of another class I used to love to race... Pro-10... so I can have fun racing sedans in the future. Thats just terrible isn't it!
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Old 10-16-2006, 06:27 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM

Hereís a little marketing 101 for you:

IT IS ALWAYS THE CONSUMER THAT DETERMINES THE TRENDS!!!

Here's a little reality 101 for you:

Thats what good ad agencies and marketing companies want you to think
You really have no clue.

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Old 10-16-2006, 06:47 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
I am regular guy. Just because I work for a company dosent mean that I can't get frustrated and lose it on people from time to time.
Sorry Syndrome
I'm frequently guilty of getting too passionate about something and responding inappropriately, probably including this case. I won't call Jihad on ROAR just yet. :-) I do think it's important to consider the feelings and opinions of racers, and possibly even the majority, but your point is well taken. It's a difficult task to be in charge of something like this where there are so many outside influences other than racing that are part of the process. Your point about most racers being short-timers, and therefor lacking insight that you can only gain through many years of experience is a good one, and something I hadn't considered before now. It sounds valid, but I hope it's not used as an excuse to stifle new ideas. Just because something new didn't work well in the past doesn't mean all new ideas are bad, or destined for failure.

You're one of the most respected guys on this site, and as you said, in a position that many of us are not. When you talk, people listen.

-Adam
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:14 PM   #146
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Calling people closed minded is not the way to win a debate, or people over. Frankly, it makes me angry to be reading some of these posts . Thats the problem I have had with some know it all TC racers..........Lack of respect for other fellow racers, too big of ego's. Everyone on here is entitled to their own opinion, and thats not being closed minded!
If you few who want to run 4 cell mod TC, have a blast doing so, I have no problems with it, do it at your local track. Just dont come on here telling me its my future if I want to run mod's, its not. And to be quite honest, if I do show up at a local event and its 4 cell mod only, I probably will retire and concentrate on offroad and fast electrics, planes, heli's, I do have other interests besides TC.
Afraid of change you say? how about BL allowed in all classes and lipo? Now thats a change! I welcome a change in the right direction that will GROW TC not just make it even more specialized and isolated to only the few who will want to run it. Its really no wonder why I see more and more guy's leaving electric going nitro since noone can agree on future battery technology, now cell count.
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:31 PM   #147
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The shift to Nitro Buggy and Truggy is just the cyclical nature of the hobby. Thats whats hot and new and thats where the racers are going. In the early 90's electric Off Road was king, then Sedans and now its all about Nitro Off Road.
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:42 PM   #148
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If it's an electric racer and LiPOs can't be fitted I'm simply not going to buy it. I'm not going to waste my time with all the Nimh maintenance for racing. Nimh is fine for bashing since you don't need to some uber tech to get everything out of your batteries.

If you think 4cell will change anything you got another thing coming. Most people don't join TC not because of the speed or thermals but the time needed to maintain battery/motor. Sure 4 cell might help the top racers, but pretty soon they'll find themselves with nothing to race since the public will move on to something they can actually enjoy. No sales = no racing.
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Old 10-16-2006, 07:57 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
The shift to Nitro Buggy and Truggy is just the cyclical nature of the hobby. Thats whats hot and new and thats where the racers are going. In the early 90's electric Off Road was king, then Sedans and now its all about Nitro Off Road.
The industry has been throwing new classes at us it's getting out of hand... We now have 18th scale Nitro cars (MT's, ST's and Buggies), 16th scale buggy, 1/7th scale 12th scale TC failed miserably.... Where does it end???? Truggies, Buggies, Muggies?!?!?

We have no Nitro anything around here, there's the few parking lots and 1 track that seems to be having it's problems but toehrwise it's EP Carpet or Off road.... Matter of fact it's 4wd buggy making a strong comeback...

We're finally at the point where Electric is threatening the speed and runtime of Nitro. Is this it, Schumacher makes one of the 70MPH RTR's that all the newbies must have and their sales are being threatened by lower maintanence electric vehicles????
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Old 10-16-2006, 08:26 PM   #150
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Nobody is eager? I guess I am nobody now.....

And there are other companies who can make motors.....sagami isn't the only game in town now....plenty of chinese companies out there willing to do work....not to mention we have already seen a partial depature from sagami by Orion and Checkpoint with the endbells....

And the TDK magnets can be bought by anyone directly from TDK.....its a magnet in there standard catalog....FB9.

Sagami has nice fat 5 segment armatures......and I have some on the way.....

I talked to Oscar about the 4 cell thing.......he seems to think it doesn't do much but eliminate Lipo from the market.....IR is a bigger problem than the voltage in his mind......after a little testing, I agree with him.....

Motor wind limits don't work......the motors actually wear out faster, not to mention cheating runs rampant.....

Open technology rules for motors can fix stuff from blowing up......Speed Controls simply need to get BIGGER, so they can fit bigger more pricey fets....

I have never figured out why people want to go slow......I know none of my top dogs want to go slower.....probably just the pussies who can't keep up.

And while the tekin motor ran well......the Novak's ran just as well.....this was a very small track.....certainly not National Level race conditions.....not a really good comparison.....not to mention, from my understanding the tekin unit won't be ROAR legal....

And for the record.....Brushless and Lipos are not going to fix these supposed problems........you are blind if you think that.....expanding ALL techonology is what does it.....no one item is a fix.....

Tired of this crap from ROAR?? IFMAR??? I am running for ROAR President.....make the vote and members will be involved in major decisions like this under my watch....

Later EddieO
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