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Old 11-14-2006, 01:01 PM   #121
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But Li=Po 7.4v only peaks '8.4 while the so called 7.2 v c/cells peak @9.2v then settle down to around 8.6v ,while the li=po settles down to around 7.9
so the li=po is more relistic in it`s quoted voltage unlike the ib`s which seem to get more & more powerfull instead they could be 1.3v cells but with wrong shrink on it just to stay legal (7.8v pack instead !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! c-cell
proberly why c/cell batts are making things go faster , the r/c batts are made just for racing ,so they mess around with the internals to make them more powerfull (but keep it secret!!!
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Old 11-14-2006, 01:03 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by EddieO
You don't honestly believe that all the battery companies are just going to fade away do you? Ask any big battery company....NO two batteries are created equal.....it would cost a hell of alot more than $10 a cell or whatever....

Later EddieO
No not at all, but I do not care... the money issue far out weights the maintance issues of NiMh for me. I rather spend 200.00 a pack and not have 500.00 in support equipment to keep the NiMh, then add in the fact that I have wasted no less then 300.00 on NiMh because of the way I thought was correct to handle them and it turned out not to be. Simply put, I do not see how anyone thinks that LiPos cost more in the long run then NiMh. As far as your business, I do not think you will go away in fact I think when you come out with matched LiPos you will increase your profits. I know I would be much happer to have to deal with the maintaince side of NiMh.

Look, at the end of the day, (as I have said before, solve the problem), and you do that by placing a voltage regulator inline. Stock gets 5.0 (or something) volts to the motor, 19T gets 6.0 and mod, is open. Simple device, simple tech and then source of power is not longer an issue. I'm not the one make this device, but if they have it for recievers, someone can make one about the size of 2 Deans plugs and call it a day. But this whole BS argueement about how LiPos are advantage or less safe then the current power source (NiMh) is just that BS.

Is sure does seem like we butt heads on line... sorry for that... you are educating me and I'm expressing my views... nothing more then that. I hope others do not mis read our postings....
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Old 11-14-2006, 01:06 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
Nominal voltage is what a cell is rated at when it has no charge in it...Its also "resting voltage". If you look on the actualy cell shrink wrap it says 1.2 volts 4200mah. On a lipo pack its "resting" voltage is 3.7 volts. But its average is much higher than that. Just like a IB cells is much higher on average than its "resting" voltage.

EA
Ok... I understand, but why is the important or the messure, we do not use cell in a resting status. So why would anyone care about the voltage resting? Again, I'm just trying to understand.... not argure with you guys...
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Old 11-14-2006, 01:49 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by bvoltz
Ok... I understand, but why is the important or the messure, we do not use cell in a resting status. So why would anyone care about the voltage resting? Again, I'm just trying to understand.... not argure with you guys...
That I cant answer...But I would assume that it was made that way to keep everyone running 1 or 2 types of cells and not having a ton of different ones (these rules were also made year's and years ago when there were no lipo cells). Im not against Lipo packs by anymeans.....Just clarifying your statement earlier.

Roar is going to do what they want to do....There's nothing any of the racers can really do about it but elect another president and hope he does a better job than the past few President's have.....Which I believe there is only one person running with the balls to do it!!

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Old 11-14-2006, 02:32 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
Roar is going to do what they want to do....There's nothing any of the racers can really do about it but elect another president and hope he does a better job than the past few President's have.....Which I believe there is only one person running with the balls to do it!!

EA
My problem with this is the Excom has to much power and the president does not have the needed power... So I really do not see much changing, balls or no balls.... I also agree that the Regional Directors should be able to have a voice, the Excom should only be for reference, not voting.... But ROAR is not mine to fix, and if they do not get together, I'm sure a lot of people will not renew memberships to make it clear they are feed up with it... Money talks and BS walks...
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:30 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by bvoltz
N I rather spend 200.00 a pack and not have 500.00 in support equipment to keep the NiMh, then add in the fact that I have wasted no less then 300.00 on NiMh because of the way I thought was correct to handle them and it turned out not to be. Simply put, I do not see how anyone thinks that LiPos cost more in the long run then NiMh. .
What went wrong with your batteries? I'm just wondering because I have year old practice packs that still run (slowly) taken care of with a Novak tray and an integy resistor discharger. I'm not trying to be combative, I just don't know what went so wrong that you feel you wasted your money.
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:48 PM   #127
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The one issue I have with all this and it was brought up before but everyone is afraid to address it is this:

There many factors that are very dangerous in our hobby that have nothing to do with batteries, ie. toxic chemicals, super hot surfaces with out any heat shielding, exposed high speed gears, exposed fans, cars flying through the air near turn marshall heads that are not wearing head protection etc. why are all these matters ignored? When I bring friends around and explain the hobby they almost always laugh not at grown men playing with toys but at the balancing act we play with safety.

I am not saying don't ban this or that what I am saying is it is time to be consistant in the decisions being made because as they stand now if I were in a posotion to have my vote mean something my vote would be no confidence.

Before anyone tries to claim I am biased remember I work for the largest R/C Ni-MH battery matcher (unless you work for GP, IB or the like you are not technically a manufacturer) we produce Li-Po's and we make brushed as well as brushless and we also make Nitro engines. Whatever happens we have our basis covered my main concern is for the future of our hobby as a whole.

This is the 5th industry I have worked in over my career and it is by far the smallest and based on everyone blaming everyone else for specific issues rather then working together to make the whole hobby a greater experience it will always remain as such. People make a hobby not the product and until we focus on attracting people rather then playing make nice with the manufactures we are going to have issues. I know to my peers this might not be a popular idea but, maybe it is time the manufactuers stay out of ROAR completely? Is ROAR in place for the industry or is ROAR for the hobbyist/racer?

(Putting on flame suit)
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Old 11-14-2006, 04:52 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
The one issue I have with all this and it was brought up before but everyone is afraid to address it is this:

There many factors that are very dangerous in our hobby that have nothing to do with batteries, ie. toxic chemicals, super hot surfaces with out any heat shielding, exposed high speed gears, exposed fans, cars flying through the air near turn marshall heads that are not wearing head protection etc. why are all these matters ignored? When I bring friends around and explain the hobby they almost always laugh not at grown men playing with toys but at the balancing act we play with safety.

I am not saying don't ban this or that what I am saying is it is time to be consistant in the decisions being made because as they stand now if I were in a posotion to have my vote mean something my vote would be no confidence.

Before anyone tries to claim I am biased remember I work for the largest R/C Ni-MH battery matcher (unless you work for GP, IB or the like you are not technically a manufacturer) we produce Li-Po's and we make brushed as well as brushless and we also make Nitro engines. Whatever happens we have our basis covered my main concern is for the future of our hobby as a whole.

This is the 5th industry I have worked in over my career and it is by far the smallest and based on everyone blaming everyone else for specific issues rather then working together to make the whole hobby a greater experience it will always remain as such. People make a hobby not the product and until we focus on attracting people rather then playing make nice with the manufactures we are going to have issues. I know to my peers this might not be a popular idea but, maybe it is time the manufactuers stay out of ROAR completely? Is ROAR in place for the industry or is ROAR for the hobbyist/racer?

(Putting on flame suit)

What do you want to see to make things safer?
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:35 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
The one issue I have with all this and it was brought up before but everyone is afraid to address it is this:

There many factors that are very dangerous in our hobby that have nothing to do with batteries, ie. toxic chemicals, super hot surfaces with out any heat shielding, exposed high speed gears, exposed fans, cars flying through the air near turn marshall heads that are not wearing head protection etc. why are all these matters ignored? When I bring friends around and explain the hobby they almost always laugh not at grown men playing with toys but at the balancing act we play with safety.

I am not saying don't ban this or that what I am saying is it is time to be consistant in the decisions being made because as they stand now if I were in a posotion to have my vote mean something my vote would be no confidence.

Before anyone tries to claim I am biased remember I work for the largest R/C Ni-MH battery matcher (unless you work for GP, IB or the like you are not technically a manufacturer) we produce Li-Po's and we make brushed as well as brushless and we also make Nitro engines. Whatever happens we have our basis covered my main concern is for the future of our hobby as a whole.

This is the 5th industry I have worked in over my career and it is by far the smallest and based on everyone blaming everyone else for specific issues rather then working together to make the whole hobby a greater experience it will always remain as such. People make a hobby not the product and until we focus on attracting people rather then playing make nice with the manufactures we are going to have issues. I know to my peers this might not be a popular idea but, maybe it is time the manufactuers stay out of ROAR completely? Is ROAR in place for the industry or is ROAR for the hobbyist/racer?

(Putting on flame suit)
Excellent points and I do agree with you. It is time for ROAR, Manufactures and racers to start working together and solve problems. All this crap does not get to the heart of the problems... If ROAR needs more money, membership fees can go up, but racers will expect some progress for the money...
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:48 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by robk
What went wrong with your batteries? I'm just wondering because I have year old practice packs that still run (slowly) taken care of with a Novak tray and an integy resistor discharger. I'm not trying to be combative, I just don't know what went so wrong that you feel you wasted your money.
No problem... Let's see, first, I was gold to discharge the batteries (3600 and 3800 IBs) after each heat, then they started to using loosing power, so I purchased a Spintech based on recommendations to restore them, this only killed them more. and the list goes on and on.... Bottom line, LiPo is much more newbie friendly... and that is how we get new people into this hobby. New people stop by my table and the response is "Holly Shit I need to purchase all this stuff to have fun on the weekends. My answer is no... but after 6 to 9 months and they can not get better, because of the hardware limitation and you have to tell them it is time to purchase new batteries (let's see 4 packs at 70.00 per pack, you figure it out. Then they find a fast guy selling off 1 month old batteries, at first this looks like a good deal, but it does not take long to figure out why.... they get pissed, and then we are on the down hill run of loosing a another newbie... Don't get me wrong, this is not the only reason, but you can all it to the list of reasons they will tell you.

Hope this helps...

Look I do not support LiPos for the nationals, but for club racing, yes, and ROAR needs to show support at the club level and the cream runs the nationals.... Not the other way around like it is currently.

But the solution to this problem is a voltage regulator and then the power source is no longer an issue.... but this seems to be to hard for all the great minds in this hobby.... But they have them for servos, go image that .....
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:58 PM   #131
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Well, again.....I am going to have to break the news to you....

When we first started racing.....we jsut charged and went.....we used chargers that came straight off a battery.....then came the plug in timer chargers....then peak chargers.....and now we have the crazy computer things you see now like the GFX or Futaba.......

And on the maintence side.....they used to do nothing.....then people started using light bulbs....then trays came along.....and now we are up to these fancy things like the spintech or the much more unit....

Now, with Lithium batteries......you are being told none of this is needed.....well, that remains to be seen. They told us that with NimH too....

What will happen, is some geek will figure out ways to charge them better......and some uber nerd will figure out how to make a discharger that increases voltage or lowers IR....and guess what, everyone will buy them....and we will be right back where we started....with hundreds of dollars in chargers/dischargers/maintenance equipment.....while the companies laugh all the way to the bank, as this new cheaper techonology just got you to replace anything....

Please keep in mind, I am not against LIPO.....it very well maybe the next step in RC batteries.....they just are not going save RC.....they are not going to save you money....and they won't save you any time in the pits.....and they certainly not going to make you a better driver....

It's a matter of time before the companies start producing the stuff.....just right now, there isn't enough market for a high end charger, discharger, etc.....when there is.....you will see it.....they will work.....and they will sell.

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Old 11-14-2006, 07:09 PM   #132
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While I agree 100% that Rick Wilson should never had been elected for the same reason I am 100% dead set that Mike not get elected. BOTH of them banned a ROAR member for LIFE even though the member broke NO ROAR rules not one. They even put the members name all over the ROAR website. The member was let back in when ROAR faced an attorney, Statute of limitations for defamation is not over yet either..

Mike may be good at printing out loads of crap off his PC to bring to a meeting but the "rules" / meeting notes released under his watch were not up to second grade cub scout level.

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Old 11-14-2006, 07:39 PM   #133
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But the solution to this problem is a voltage regulator and then the power source is no longer an issue.... but this seems to be to hard for all the great minds in this hobby.... But they have them for servos, go image that .....
I'm not really electronic savy here, but I would imagine a regulator needed to cover the voltage our current batteries produce would be big $$$...The heat, resistence needs to go somewhere
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Old 11-14-2006, 07:47 PM   #134
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Yeah, I wonder how hard it was to print out stuff from mine or carl's thread on RCtech....

I have read the supposed summary of the meeting....not sure how 200 pages of stuff was gotten from what was passed, denied or considered....

And a voltage regulator would either have to BIG to keep the price down or stupid expensive to make it small....and even then, you will still have some with slightly better or worse tolerances.....

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Old 11-14-2006, 08:04 PM   #135
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As for voltage regulators, I have played with these and made some cool devices to power my servo and PT independently from the BEC output of the speed controll.

Here is how they work. A 6v regulator will take anywhere from 6.5 up to I think 12 volts, and it only puts out 6 volts. It will not put out six volts if the input voltage is below that.
These devices, about the size of a power transistor(like the size of the transistors in the old Cyclone speed controls) are capable of delivering 1 amp of current. so, in otherwords 6 watts max. Good stock motors can make up to and over 180 watts of power. Therefore you would need at LEAST 30 of these hooked up in parallel.

It would be awfull big, and at about $3-5 each, your looking at a big price tag for the device.

And if you're looking to level the playing field then take into consideration the variation in motors. No two are the same. So, even with a controlled voltage output on the battery side, you will still have variation in motor speed. Not to mention gearing, tire size, weight and MOST IMPORTANTLY: car setup and DRIVING!
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