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Old 11-11-2006, 11:08 PM   #76
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marcos, read the roar documentation.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:17 PM   #77
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marcos, read the roar documentation.
i did I just wanted to make sure
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Old 11-12-2006, 07:10 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
ROAR fully intends to revisit the LiPo question annually. For now LiPo's are banned in R/C vehicles due to how sensitive the pack are to crashes. Between the fires that have happened this year from LiPo reciever packs and the insurance companies worries about LiPo we had no choice but to ban them until there is a more stable cell technology.

For now LiPo Transmitter packs are still allowed since thay are not subjected to the jarring and crashing packs in cars are subjected to. However, if we see ANY problems with their use we will have no choice but to ban them too.

WOW talk about pissing off allot of off road fuel guys with that move. In Florida I'd be willing to bet at least 1/3rd of all the 1/8th off road racers (and that number is huge) run LIPO's in thier recivers. I have been racing for 12+ years mostly 1/8th fuel off-road and a little TC here and there. Due to the distance I have to travel for an off road race I decided to pick up a TC because there is a local track within 10 minutes just to stay sharp. I was determined not to get stupid with Battery and Motor wars again as I just wanted to do this for practice and fun. So I went with a BL and Lipo setup because I can run all day and not deal with multiple packs, dischargers, multiple chargers, comm lathes and all the other stuff that would make this more costly and out weight the fun factor. Way to be Narrow Minded ROAR. Thank God this local track has an open pro mod class and it's run what ya brung.
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Old 11-12-2006, 07:47 AM   #79
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rdeppen - Read my response again. We have nothing against LiPo. Heck, I fly planes and helicopters...I own a ton of LiPo packs. We pretty much had no choice but to do this at this time due to pressure from our insurance company.

There are dozens of tracks that rely on ROAR insurance to be able to use the property they are occupying. All it would take is one careless racer having a LiPo fire that damages property or injured some one and the policy would be cancelled.

That was too big a risk to take.

Like I said we will be reviewing this annually and the moment there is a more stable cell technology and our insurance carrier has relaxed on their position LiPo will become legal again.
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Old 11-12-2006, 10:19 AM   #80
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Adrian,youre point is right on,alot of people dont realize,that alot of tracks depend on the insurance to exist.I know we do.The town owns the property,and requires us to have liability insurance.

We tried getting it from the outside,it was way to expensive.Again we are only a club not a buisness(a buisness would use that insurance to cover the track.)

I would like to thank roar for offering insurance for us small guys,so we can exist.
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Old 11-12-2006, 06:25 PM   #81
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AdrianM you are saying that the ROAR insurance policy is on unstable enough terms that one claim will cause the loss of the policy? IF this is what excom thinks then there needs to be emergency safety rules put in place today.
NO NITRO, NO SHARPS, NO SMOKING AT ROAR EVENTS, FIRE EQUIPMENT IN EACH PIT, NO BATTERY CHARGERS and so on and so forth NOW! I doubt this is really the case now is it?

ROAR insurance is secondary insurance that only covers ROAR members and spectators watching ROAR events. Full insurance is about $300 a year where as ROAR secondary insurance can pay for itself if you sign up enough ROAR members but you have a BIG gap in coverage.

I call BULL HOCKEY on the "insurance" company excuse; I doubt the insurance company even knows about lipoly packs. If this line of thinking were true the use of hard plastic blade bumpers on 1:8 scale cars would have been banned long ago. I have been involved with R/C car racing from 1977 and have witnessed MANY people getting hurt to the point of needing stitches and broken bones form 1:8 scale hard plastic blade bumpers. I have witnessed only 2 battery pack fires both were nicad packs in all that time that caused NO injuries.

If this is a PRO active move by ROAR to ban the packs that the insurance company knows nothing of, then ROAR should also be passing rules for hard hats for off road turn marshals and shin guards for on road turn marshals first.

A quick call to the insurance company in the morning to check this out is in order.

AdrianM who brought the rule up for a vote and who seconded it?

Last edited by Nomadio_Sales; 11-12-2006 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 11-12-2006, 07:12 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadio_Sales
ROAR insurance is secondary insurance that only covers ROAR members and spectators watching ROAR events. Full insurance is about $300 a year where as ROAR secondary insurance can pay for itself if you sign up enough ROAR members but you have a BIG gap in coverage.

I call BULL HOCKEY on the "insurance" company excuse, I doubt the insurance company even knows about lipoly packs. If this line of thinking were true the use of hard plastic blade bumpers on 1:8 scale cars would have been banned long ago. I have been involved with R/C car racing from 1977 and have witnessed MANY people getting hurt to the point of needing stitches and broken bones form 1:8 scale hard plastic blade bumpers. I have witnessed only 2 battery pack fires both were nicad packs in all that time that caused NO injuries.

If this is a PRO active move by ROAR to ban the packs that the insurance company knows nothing of, then ROAR should also be passing rules for hard hats for off road turn marshals and shin guards for on road turn marshals first.

A quick call to the insurance company in the morning to check this out is in order.

AdrianM who brought the rule up for a vote and who seconded it?
ROAR insurance is secondary for personal coverage. ROAR affilate tracks can purchase additional primary liability insurance for ~$60.00 per year. That is an incredible deal for the coverage it buys.

Whenever there is any issue that could potentially affect our liability exposure we bring it to the insurance company and make sure they have no issues with it. They investigate and then reply with their opinion. They can say its not a problem like they did when we cleaned up the track rules last year to officially allow PVC pipes as track borders. They can say its a small problem that would cause an increase in premiums to cover the additional risk or thay can say no way, its too risky for them to insure.

This time the insurance company said if we allowed LiPo there would be a significant rate increase that would cause a ROAR membership fee increase and they if there was a significant loss (Like This: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ght=lexus+fire) it could lead to a cancellation of the policy. This was unacceptable so we unanomously voted to ban LiPo for the time being.

This issue was put on the agenda by Fred Hohwart the ROAR Administrator and the manager of our insurance program and read to the comitee by the President Mike Queller. Next year If Carl or Eddie become President they will read it to the comitee and submit it to a vote.
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Old 11-12-2006, 07:26 PM   #83
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roar is the worst. Ifmar is better
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Old 11-12-2006, 10:21 PM   #84
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Hopefully the ban says LITHIUM....no LIPO....cause people can just use Lithium Ion or Lithium Maganese...

I would like to see the letter from the insurance company on this....

However, it would not suprise me with all the laptop batteries problems........Insurance companies have been going nuts about them.....my employer got a letter from our insurance company advising us we need to turn in all the batteries for replacements as fires caused by the packs would not be covered....

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Old 11-12-2006, 11:11 PM   #85
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Cheese, the IFMAR charter is inked to the ROAR block while both can and do have their own rules they are tied to the hip as it were.

Li ION packs have gotten a bad rap because of the Sony laptop melt down but the batteries are built more like "normal" packs then Li Poly.
Li Poly packs in planes have gone BOOM after crashes but you canít even come close to the impact damage in a car as you do in a plane made out of packing foam, balsa or fiberglass / carbon

AdrianM I agree with extra $60 for FULL coverage is a great thing but it is not properly communicated to the track owners by ROAR on why they need it and they do in most cases.

Track boarders to the outside world are one thing but flying 1:8 scale buggies have a greater risk of hitting a turn marshal upside the head then receiver packs catching fire. Yet there is no rule making hard hats for off road turn marshals mandatory. Would you not agree that there have been more trips to the emergency rooms due to hard plastic 1:8 scale on road "bumpers" then there have been fires caused by exploding receiver packs?

Someone has an agenda here that transcends the insurance policy or risk factors because there are greater risks right now then LI Poly packs.

Now what about LI ION receiver packs? Go or no go under the rule?
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:21 PM   #86
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By the way Fred can't bring a motion to the floor of excom because he is not on the excom. So was it Mike Queller who brought the motion to the floor of excom and who gave the second of the motion?
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:48 AM   #87
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All lithium packs are banned but like I said before this will get reviewed annually.

You are right Fred has no vote but he can say he thinks we need to look into any given issue. He generally talks to Mike so Mike but it on the agenda. I see no point in fleshing this out because if Carl or Eddie were president they would have to do the same thing. I can't recall who seconded it first as a few of us seconded it all at once.

I will say one thing. I was not going to vote for Mike Queller before going to the ExCom meeting. Seeing how much time he puts into the job and the level of deidcation he has changed my mind. Mike showed up at the ExCom meeting with 200 printed pages of notes on the issues we were covering. He had been working on that for 2 months. Mike knows the ROAR rule book and bylaws front to back. I was impressed by the way he could look at the issues from all angles and provide arguments and examples of the pros and cons of every issue we covered. I am not sure if Carl or Eddie understand that they are taking on a 2nd full time job if they become ROAR President.

Whatever happens we do not need another Rick Wilson. Rick meant well but was a bit of a procranstinator and really didn't have the free time to do the job properly.
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Old 11-13-2006, 08:08 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadio_Sales

Someone has an agenda here that transcends the insurance policy or risk factors because there are greater risks right now then LI Poly packs.
This happens on the ROAR ExComm? Say it ain't so!
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Old 11-13-2006, 08:11 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Does anyone have any questions about the other rule changes?
Yes.

How does a track that gets the recommendation from the applicable committee and the majority of regional directors get hosed for the Nationals?

And before I get a reply regarding a "technicality", do you mean to tell me that a simple phone call or email reminding them for the measley $35 fee was too much to ask?
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Old 11-13-2006, 08:43 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSmooth
This happens on the ROAR ExComm? Say it ain't so!
Sure people have agendas. Everyone does from George Dub-Yah to the guy lobbying for an R/C track at City Council meetings.

Some agendas are self serving but in the case of ROAR the worst possible motivation for an agenda is a personal power trip. I can honestly tell you from what I saw this year no one on the ExCom would fall in that category.

In case you are curious here is what I went into the ExCom meeting looking to get:

1. Clean up the brushless rules. (Waiting on feedback from the manufacturers.)
2. Open up the 19T rule to make more motors legal. (passed)
3. Get Dale Epps Body Dimension limits proposal approved so sedan bodies dont get really crazy looking. (passed by ROAR and EFRA)
4. Setup On Line ROAR renewals (will happne this coming year)
5. Setup On Line ROAR voting (may happen this coming year)
6. Setup Exibition races to draw new people into the hobby (working on it)
7. Discuss how to get independant races into the ROAR family (we have some good ideas that the race promotors we have talked to really like)

I didn't get to bring up any of these thing as Mike already had all of them in his things to discuss list.
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