R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-14-2006, 08:11 PM   #136
Tech Master
 
adamge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Saskatoon,SK Canada
Posts: 1,654
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Uh, I could be crazy, but I'm pretty sure our brushed ESCs are just voltage regulators with high power ability and variable output voltage. There's no reason the ESC manufacturers can't program into their ESC that full throttle is 7V, or 6.98V, or 6.5V, or whatever we want.

-Adam
__________________
When someone is intent on excelling in an otherwise laudable manner, does he not desire to inflict pain on others by means of his exalted status and enjoy the envy he arouses? Is there not an anticipated delight in an artist's ability to defeat his artistic rivals, which heightens his euphoria in creation?
-Nietzsche
adamge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 08:30 PM   #137
Tech Champion
 
C_O_jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Wa.
Posts: 9,055
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

You could use an automotive voltage reulator, they are now solid state and can handle up to around 180Amps. Not too big and weigh around an ounce.

BUT WHY ?
If you want to castrate stock, you need to find something else to race, like maybe 1/18th ?
The whole premise behind racing, at least to my understanding, is to improve the current product, make more power and make it go faster.
It is, after all, called racing.
__________________
Bacon is Meat Candy
C_O_jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 08:51 PM   #138
Tech Addict
 
stumper1's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 549
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Has anyone ever proposed a set of regulations or guidelines for lipo? What if ROAR adopted lipo but for some reason the packs you allready bought weren't approved?

Battery wars will always be there. For those that think lipo is ready - what will manufacturers work on now? The same ol' battery? They will ALWAYS try to improve them over someone else's cells - if not, why would we buy them? Do you REALLY think there won't be a better lipo next year?

Does ROAR really stop anyone from buying lipo? I don't think so - how many people own 4200's?

I'm not for or against lipo. My opinion is that if they are REALLY so much better than our current cells - PEOPLE WILL BUY THEM - myself included.

However, they will NEVER be cheaper.
__________________
[COLOR="Lime"]Deric®[/COLOR]
stumper1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 09:32 PM   #139
Tech Elite
 
bvoltz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bedtime with Teddi
Posts: 3,635
Trader Rating: 44 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones
You could use an automotive voltage reulator, they are now solid state and can handle up to around 180Amps. Not too big and weigh around an ounce.

BUT WHY ?
If you want to castrate stock, you need to find something else to race, like maybe 1/18th ?
The whole premise behind racing, at least to my understanding, is to improve the current product, make more power and make it go faster.
It is, after all, called racing.
I'm not talking about castration.... I'm talking about making the power source (battery) not a issue. Stock is the entry class (currently it is the most expensive class to run), but people complain that factory drivers are running it. So make is slower, for the newbie, keep the factory guys out (they will not want to go that slow), and if you want faster, then move up to 19T or Mod, your choice.... At the end of the day solve the problem not just another bandage on the hole.

I sounds like regulators are out there, so why take a really look at this, and stop this battery BS....????
bvoltz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 09:54 PM   #140
Tech Master
 
DerekB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,421
Default

I never understand why people think, putting some limit on voltage will help anybody. It really just switches the "factor" to something else. We limit voltage/current, which I honestly believe is impossible, and now it's how good the fets are, how fast the motor is, how good the magnets are, how good the tires are, the sauce on the tires, the rims, the arms.....it's endless and why most of us race. TO WIN, we want to beat the next guy, and if it's suspension tuning, motor building, driving knowledge, or even luck that's what we race for.

STOP trying to change all the rules to be IROC, if everybody wants to run the same exact thing to see who is better....play a video game. Or start an IROC class where everybody runs the same stuff and switches cars.

But I race so I can win, and if I find something, within the rules, to put me there...I'm using it.

It's time for most to realize that you're a D-main driver and it's not because somebody has .001 volts more, or a better charger. You're just not that good. And I'm proud to be an F-Main driver at the Reedy in OPen mod. I can do better in 19T but I like the challenge. And it wasn't because I ran a 4-star motor, or had AE practice packs.
__________________
Velocity RC Magazine
www.vrcmag.com
DerekB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 09:57 PM   #141
Tech Master
 
DerekB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,421
Default

Oh, and LIPOS are good packs that don't have as much of an advantage as people think. Didn't they run them at the KO Race and people complained they lacked punch?


And I think all the manufacturer's need to have a voice in ROAR, but not run ROAR. ROAR isn't in control of this hobby or racing, and shouldn't be. Like the FIA they have people and reps from manufacturers, but unlike other forms of racing, or products are for consumers to buy, so rules have to take in consideration what actually sells and supports racing.
__________________
Velocity RC Magazine
www.vrcmag.com
DerekB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 10:25 PM   #142
Tech Elite
 
PitCrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle Indoor Raceway
Posts: 2,129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamge
Uh, I could be crazy, but I'm pretty sure our brushed ESCs are just voltage regulators with high power ability and variable output voltage. There's no reason the ESC manufacturers can't program into their ESC that full throttle is 7V, or 6.98V, or 6.5V, or whatever we want.

-Adam
yup.
Your crazy.

The ESC does NOT work by varying the ammount of voltage going to the motor. Though this is how it SEEMS to work.
The ESC works by switching the power (FULL VOLTAGE) on and off and on and off really fast. Most speedos can be adjusted for this frequency. They way it works is like this. At low speed, when you think its delivering low voltage its just that the ON time of the transistor is less.

So for instance, if the frequency was 1hz (1 cycle per second), and you wanted to go slow; the transistor would turn on for like .1 seconds at FULL power and be off for .9 seconds untill the next cycle happens.
At "FULL" power it might be on for .99 seconds, and off for .01.
Of course at this low of a frequency the car would respond very strange, but at over 2000hz, the result is a smooth slowness.

Try this; pick up your car and apply the lowest amount of throttle you can. Hopefully you can apply just enough to make the motor "whine" but not rotate. That is the frequency of the speedo you hear, and the motor is acting like a speaker of sorts as it vibrates back and forth very fast.
PitCrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 10:28 PM   #143
Tech Elite
 
PitCrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle Indoor Raceway
Posts: 2,129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
I'm not talking about castration.... I'm talking about making the power source (battery) not a issue. Stock is the entry class (currently it is the most expensive class to run), but people complain that factory drivers are running it. So make is slower, for the newbie, keep the factory guys out (they will not want to go that slow), and if you want faster, then move up to 19T or Mod, your choice.... At the end of the day solve the problem not just another bandage on the hole.

I sounds like regulators are out there, so why take a really look at this, and stop this battery BS....????

I dont' know about the rest of the country but around here there is a class called NOVICE. Its where begginers race.

And remember all motors are going to be different. And car effeciency, set up, on and on.

If you want things to be that even, why don't you all take turns driving the same car. YOu could do 1 car heats and everyone drives the same car. Would everyones lap times be the same? NO.
PitCrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 10:49 PM   #144
Tech Addict
 
DrOlds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 644
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
What will happen, is some geek will figure out ways to charge them better......and some uber nerd will figure out how to make a discharger that increases voltage or lowers IR....and guess what, everyone will buy them....and we will be right back where we started....with hundreds of dollars in chargers/dischargers/maintenance equipment.....while the companies laugh all the way to the bank, as this new cheaper techonology just got you to replace anything....
I'm sure you're right,that will happen.But it will take time-esp. since it is a realitively new technology.But there are obviously a lot of people that want to enjoy the benefits of that ever elusive "level playing field" NOW-at the LOCAL level,before it gets over-developed and all that nonsense comes back into play.Because that is what the current state of lipo technology offers.Charging your 4200's at 10amps will gain you a horespower advantage at the cost of turning the packs into junk in 10 cycles(abuse).Abusing your lipos risks a FIRE-people aren't eager to do that.And are less eager to shorten the life of a $150 pack than they are now to trash $50 packs.That is one reason why this can be a good thing for racing at the local level. Because racing at the national,championship level is a different thing than weekend club (hobby) level racing.There seems to be some serious resistance to this technology,and the question I have is,are people trying to block it at the national championship level(which would be understandable),or at ALL levels,or are people simply not making a distinction between the two?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Please keep in mind, I am not against LIPO.....it very well maybe the next step in RC batteries.....they just are not going save RC.....they are not going to save you money....and they won't save you any time in the pits.....and they certainly not going to make you a better driver....
There are several ways in which they will save the average,weekend,hobby racer money-at least until your doomsday senario plays out.

1-One $150 lipo pack will do the work of 3 $50 nimh packs.Instead if one pack per race you have one pack per car.The run times are long enough,and the discharge curve is linear enough,that 2 heats per charge are quite easy and when combine with brushless there are some that will be able to run a whole raceday without a recharge.Even money.

2-Lifespan-Lots more charges before they dropoff and become practice packs.This is amplified GREATLY by the fact that there are very good reasons not to abuse them.Cheaper in the long run.

3-At this time at least,good chargers for these are quite a bit less than high end nimh chargers,and all the discharging aparatus isn't needed at all.The argument can be made about "having to buy all new stuff",but a used GFX is still worth enough to easily buy 2 good lipo chargers,and replacing the packs you needed to replace anyway.Lots cheaper if starting out,and still cheaper if you're not.

They most definatly will save you time in the pits.Nimh cells need to be hot off the charger to deliver peak performance-every round.Lipos can be charged the day before if you like,and don't necessarily need to be peaked at all beween every round.You don't need to babysit them with all the discharging rituals either.More time to make the car better,rather than just make sure it will run again,or more time to hang out and have a good time.

Nothing you buy will make you a better driver,except practice time.I think everone knows that.Brushless and lipos make that practice time a whole bunch cheaper and more appealing because you not out there consuming your good stuff.You can stay out on the track for 10 minutes if you like,and without having to change the motor out after.

Another important distinction to make is that between on road and off road.Your doomsday senario will be an issue in on-road where all the cars are underpowered and 5% better batteries are noticeable-not so in off-road.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
It's a matter of time before the companies start producing the stuff.....just right now, there isn't enough market for a high end charger, discharger, etc.....when there is.....you will see it.....they will work.....and they will sell.

Later EddieO
I'm not trying to pick on you Eddie,I'm mainly trying to get people to see that big races,and the rules they require,and club races are two different things.I don't see why there is resistance to using it at the club level,now,BEFORE all that stuff comes out and makes it the same old rat race again-which is not good for local racing.Everything is always more fun before it gets overdeveloped,and on-road is way overdeveloped now.I do think that some of it is because there is a big segment of the industry that is not in a position to make any money off of it yet,again not directed at you,but it's out there.
DrOlds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 11:07 PM   #145
Tech Elite
 
bvoltz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bedtime with Teddi
Posts: 3,635
Trader Rating: 44 (100%+)
Default

Pitcrew and DerekB - I'm sorry for not being as smart and in tune with R/C as you both are. I will try not to bug you guys any more...
bvoltz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 11:20 PM   #146
Tech Elite
 
PitCrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle Indoor Raceway
Posts: 2,129
Default

Now with all this extra track time your getting with lipo's and brushless your using up tires faster.

Oh man, we will never win.

Hey, this is what some guys are doing around here on the LOCAL level, since they can do whatever they want really.

There is a Silvercan class, yeah those Tamiya silver slow ass motors. They race those in a class. Any local track could do the same thing if they had the people that wanted to do it. You know the adage; build it and they will come? Kinda the same thing.

Problem is there are not necessarily enough racers to make so many different classes. This is what will happen. There are more "slow" guys than fast guys and the slow guys will all bunch up and there won't be enough racers for the "fast" guys to race with. NOW fast guys are going to be racing with the "slow" guys and winning. Now people are going to cry that it isn't fair for them to race in the "slow" class.

NOW WHAT do you do?
PitCrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 12:44 AM   #147
Tech Legend
 
Wild Cherry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: TRCR Modified Driver
Posts: 22,595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitCrew

NOW WHAT do you do?
Thats easy ...


race mod


and

leave the slow guys and beginner`s in stock alone....
__________________
Any driver can copy a great set up, a Champion however will steal it .
If Jesus returned as a Rc car he be a Rc10 B5M
George W. Cherry
Wild Cherry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 08:01 AM   #148
Tech Elite
 
Jack Smash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 2,897
Trader Rating: 29 (100%+)
Default

They should allow Lipo in mod across the board. Most of the guys who run onroad mod are sponsored anyway, and in offroad we're traction limited so the extra .2v would just mean going up a turn in the motors.
__________________
Kyosho / Orion / Amain.com / Protek / MIP /
Jack Smash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 08:39 AM   #149
Tech Master
 
adamge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Saskatoon,SK Canada
Posts: 1,654
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Drolds, you base a lot on the fact that lipos all work at a given level, and do that for a lot of cycles. The truth is that voltage slowly falls as the pack gets more cycles on it, and that battery temperature makes a difference to voltage under load.
__________________
When someone is intent on excelling in an otherwise laudable manner, does he not desire to inflict pain on others by means of his exalted status and enjoy the envy he arouses? Is there not an anticipated delight in an artist's ability to defeat his artistic rivals, which heightens his euphoria in creation?
-Nietzsche
adamge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2006, 08:50 AM   #150
Tech Elite
 
bvoltz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bedtime with Teddi
Posts: 3,635
Trader Rating: 44 (100%+)
Default

The answers are simple and right in front of you.

If you use let's say voltage regulator, set it to 7.0 across the board, you end the battery war, plain and simple.

You want to try to tell us that NiHm are more safe then LiPo, and I say this just BS.

But if you use a device to limit the voltage reaching the motor, then the battery really does not matter, unless of course you put in one that is say only 4.0 volts, but then that is your problem.

As for (as DerekB put it) IROC like class, that is what Stock is already, with handout motor and handout tires for the bigger races. They are always trying to "level" the playing field for this class. So you have your IROC class.

As far as just adding a class for Novice, not all clubs have the racers to do this, so they don't.

Personally - Stock has no place at a national event, 19T and Mod do have a place. Personally ROAR should focus on developing the classes and rules for the club level, not at the national level. You simply have items that are not allow at a national race, less classes, less options, after all, it is a national, not a club race. If you do not get people into the hobby at the club level you will have less racers at the nationals. So again, I say start solving the problem.

In closing, if the current way is not working well, then what is the harm in trying some new things? Continuing to do the same thing over and over is .... well that is the defination of "stupid".
bvoltz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What has Roar done for me lately ? Jason Pelletier Electric Off-Road 212 09-06-2008 04:25 PM
Non-Roar club trophy races-vs-Roar club events dawgmeat Electric On-Road 17 01-27-2007 06:28 PM
ROAR does it again rcdude69 Electric Off-Road 4 11-30-2006 12:18 PM
New ROAR Still Bill Electric On-Road 18 02-04-2006 11:06 PM
non-roar bodies faster than roar? imjonah Electric On-Road 5 05-13-2005 07:40 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 06:48 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net