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Old 09-29-2006, 10:36 PM   #31
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would fix the problem and racing would begin to improve ...
Everyone should run novice 19T foam.
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Old 09-29-2006, 11:04 PM   #32
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You think you guys got it bad? Forget that I went to an onroad race that had 5 different classes for touring cars. Try going to a motocross. In the old days if you came on a 250 you were in the 250 class. Now you have about 7 or 8 to chose from. Of course with only a handful in each one. Everyone wants to just buy a trophy instead of earn it! The last race had a total of 47 classes for a one day race. Please don't go there. not for r/c. On road racing should be simple, 1/10th only with 6-cell Formula1 and 4-cell Formula1. 1/12th is for carpet and 1/8 cost too much.
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Old 09-29-2006, 11:09 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darkseid
From what I've seen, usually the question about are there too many classes is usually based around the lack of completely filled classes. Meaning that nobody really complains when you have 7 different classes, and ALL 7 have 8-10 people in them. The complaint of too many classes usually means that there are 3 guys here, 2 guys there, 3 over there, etc... So it doesn't seem, to me at least, that the problem is 'how many' classes.

The real problem seems to be, 'why aren't there enough racers' to fill all these classes.

And the answer to that has to be posed to the 6-7+ guys who post "Complete Sell Out" post every day on this boards buy/sell section. And thats just this board alone!

Apparently the hobby is missing something thats causing all these people to leave and leave those of us remaining with "too many" classes and not enough people to fill them.
I agree with your post completely.
I also think everyone should read this post by Chuck Kimbrough, the owner of Kimbrough Products.

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Thousands of people buy competitive R/C racing cars kits every year, but only a few hundred stay with the hobby very long. The reason it doesn't grow is the high drop out rate. If you happen to run into an ex-R/C car racer, ask them why they quit. The answer I hear the most is, "the cars got too fast and it took too much time and money to be competitive".
You can read more about slowing down the speeds in this thread.
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Old 09-29-2006, 11:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Darkseid
From what I've seen, usually the question about are there too many classes is usually based around the lack of completely filled classes. Meaning that nobody really complains when you have 7 different classes, and ALL 7 have 8-10 people in them. The complaint of too many classes usually means that there are 3 guys here, 2 guys there, 3 over there, etc... So it doesn't seem, to me at least, that the problem is 'how many' classes.

The real problem seems to be, 'why aren't there enough racers' to fill all these classes.

And the answer to that has to be posed to the 6-7+ guys who post "Complete Sell Out" post every day on this boards buy/sell section. And thats just this board alone!

Apparently the hobby is missing something thats causing all these people to leave and leave those of us remaining with "too many" classes and not enough people to fill them.

I've seen clases being added because the same guys are tired of finishing 20th, when they can simply now finish 7th with the addition of a new class at the club level...

Racer numbers go up, they go down. An RC car isn't like a tattoo, you don't have to do it or have it forever, it's a hobby. People come and go all the time. Slow in one area, busier in another. The guy that sells out, all to often invests his money in another hobby. That's how hobbies go. A guy we race with was griping about something or another being to expensive, too competetive, sold his stuff. We saw him later that summer with a new YZ250 in the back of his truck... He wasn't having fun, he's out. He was a spode anyway, loud mouth, not a nice guy. It would be funny to find out that dirt bike attendance was down where he was at. Mean time our numbers as a whole are up.

Racing is fun. People will do it as long as it's fun in thier area. When a hobby is no longer fun, you don't like the people, etc.. you get out. Where people have fun, the hobby flourishes.

People come and go on the company bowling or softball teams, or playing pool, or hanging in a bar, it's just how it goes. It's where your interest lies.

If the hobby is dead in a particular area of the country, I can tell you that it has not died there because it was to expensive or to competitive. People will spend their extra cash where it is providing them with fun. Nobody needs a $30,000 ski-boat, or $500 kite or a $1000 fishing pole, or a $300 RC10T, an $8000 four wheeler. It's a hobby, it's what you do to have fun.

I don't know anybody that has ever quite because it was JUST TO DANG MUCH FUN!!! "I hope I never have to go back to that place where I was having the time of my LIFE!!"
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Old 09-30-2006, 12:01 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by James35
I agree with your post completely.
I also think everyone should read this post by Chuck Kimbrough, the owner of Kimbrough Products.



You can read more about slowing down the speeds in this thread.
Chuck is right, and he's wrong. Part of the hobby is the "Hobby". To explain that, he says that it's a "participation sport". To which, I agree. If you want an easier to run car that requires no maintenance on chassis or motor, you have eliminated half of the participation and the hobby itself, which is building and working on the cars. "look what I made, did, improved, built, fixed, or tinkered on", all of that is now gone. Imagine going to a larger event and being told right after your last heat at 4pm to leave your stuff, go to your room and come back tomorrow...?!?!? What would you do, go to a movie, hit the bar???? It's part of the hobby.

Now you don't have to put any time into your hobby. No need to wrench on your stuff or work on your cars. Hmm, what will you do with all your spare time now that you don't have to work on your cars? Probably get another hobby! Part of the goal of the RC hobby (or any hobby) was to fill your spare time. Now that ain't happenin'... How much is a paint ball gun?.. My wife enjoys "scrap booking" oh MAN what a fiasco that is, just photos and stuff in a book? right? You would not believe the stuff you have to have to "scrap". I bet she has 40 pair of scissors.....

This has the added disadvantage of now removing all the excuses from the people that didn't win. You now know that for the most part, since you have the SAME EXACT everything as the other guy, you truly do not have the talent to win. If you traded cars, the other guy would still win by the same margin.

To many classes, pushing a particular motor or chassis... whatever. If it isn't fun, nobody goes. How to make it fun? People add classes because they want to do better, and feel they might do better on rubber, or with a 19t or whatever. After a few weeks in most clubs, they tend not to put the rookies in the same heat as the fast guys, just irritates everybody. Now the rookies can beat the tar out of each other in their own heat... and the fast guys that have to marshal the heat can come back out of breath and covered in sweat... At which time they can either offer some help to the noob with the bad handling car or walk by laughing to their buddy that it was "THEE WORST HACKFEST I HAVE EVER SEEN..." Noob doesn't show up next week, nobody knows why... Those in charge are amazed at what seems like to many classes and not enough participants.

Look on the Vegas thread. Notice the common thing from those that were there and posted about it? "Man, it was a blast, GOOD JOB!!" All of them can't wait to go back.

I don't know that club racing is ever really about money. Seriously, how many people do you know that can't scrape up $8 bucks for an entry fee, and you saw them last at a gas station a week ago with a $4 coffee in their hand and a $50 carton of cigarette's. Yet you see that as a gripe on the forums now and then. And I don't want to sound like a snob, but if you can't scrape up a few dollars for an entry fee, and I mean REALLY CAN'T do it or you will lose your home and they are cutting the power. MAN, seriously, you shouldn't be in the hobby, don't blame the hobby though.

People find the money for enjoyable things to do. $20 for a movie, $5 bucks for a big Ben and Jerrys.

It's fun, it's a toy car, it's probably to fast, and it's a blast!! Enjoy yourself and your friends. Make sure everybody that leaves your event at some point was laughing so hard they nearly wet their pants... you'll see them again next week, with their buddy at work that wants to know more about all the fun he keeps hearing about.......................................
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Old 09-30-2006, 12:16 AM   #36
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One further thought on "to many classes?"

I officially raced my last motocross event about 2 years ago (I was okay, perhaps a top 10 "c" rider in a field of 24 or more, having fun with my buddies at the track). I had a revelation during the second moto.. As I lay on the ground near the track looking up through my helmet at the EMT's, I thought to myself, (while gasping for air because I partially collapsed my left lung when I cased the double), you know, this isn't as much "FUN" lately as it had been in the past.

No amount of 250 "A", "B", C", vet, rookie, whatever class or any new invented class was going to change the fact that I wasn't having any FUN, and decided to stop racing and pursue other side hobbys. I still ride, I just don't race. Still have that bike, now setup for hauling down fast trails (where I fell into some cactus...) Still fun though.
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Old 09-30-2006, 03:22 AM   #37
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everyone race tc cause there is no other choice, Alot of off road club in the uk have changed to on road.

Although we are seeing a revival of the off road class and the 1/12th class.
I would much prefer to race 1/12th on carpet than tc as carpet tracks in the uk aren't really big enough for tc racing.
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Old 09-30-2006, 01:34 PM   #38
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The thing is, just like mx I always have people coming up to me with the same request. "why don't you start a class for the people who do not win all the time and they won't have to race against them" I try to explain to them that in r/c you qualify to race in a main against people closer to your skill level. Nobody see's it that way. They want the kid in his own class that's an automatic A-main for his benefit. I guess they don't want him to learn anything, just show results to get sponsors. I see this every race and have been hearing it since the 80's. I have to keep telling them "no class for just blue cars, No class for just left-handed drivers, no class just for those that live closest to the track" you got a stock tc you are in the tc class! I've tried novice several times but that also fades away when one or two guys win a couple of races and the rest look for something they can win at.
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Old 09-30-2006, 02:07 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
I've seen clases being added because the same guys are tired of finishing 20th, when they can simply now finish 7th with the addition of a new class at the club level...

Racer numbers go up, they go down. An RC car isn't like a tattoo, you don't have to do it or have it forever, it's a hobby. People come and go all the time. Slow in one area, busier in another. The guy that sells out, all to often invests his money in another hobby. That's how hobbies go. A guy we race with was griping about something or another being to expensive, too competetive, sold his stuff. We saw him later that summer with a new YZ250 in the back of his truck... He wasn't having fun, he's out. He was a spode anyway, loud mouth, not a nice guy. It would be funny to find out that dirt bike attendance was down where he was at. Mean time our numbers as a whole are up.

Racing is fun. People will do it as long as it's fun in thier area. When a hobby is no longer fun, you don't like the people, etc.. you get out. Where people have fun, the hobby flourishes.

People come and go on the company bowling or softball teams, or playing pool, or hanging in a bar, it's just how it goes. It's where your interest lies.

If the hobby is dead in a particular area of the country, I can tell you that it has not died there because it was to expensive or to competitive. People will spend their extra cash where it is providing them with fun. Nobody needs a $30,000 ski-boat, or $500 kite or a $1000 fishing pole, or a $300 RC10T, an $8000 four wheeler. It's a hobby, it's what you do to have fun.

I don't know anybody that has ever quite because it was JUST TO DANG MUCH FUN!!! "I hope I never have to go back to that place where I was having the time of my LIFE!!"
Not quite sure how this purtains to my post.

I never made any mention of "cost" of the hobby, but that seems to be the base for your post.

I stated, quite clearly I thought, that you only end up with "too many" classes, if you don't have enough people to fill them. No body complains when there are 7-8 classes, and plenty of people to fill them. So I siad that if people want to solve the problem of too many classes, it starts with trying to retain people to the hobby.

Again, I'm not sure how my post lead to a financial accounting of various hobbies?
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Old 09-30-2006, 02:21 PM   #40
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I've heard many times that the start of a new class is usually because "people who can't win in other classes, want to go to a new one where they can win".

While this may be true in some cases, for the most part, I think this is complete BS. In our area, people throw this accusation around like candy at Halloween. And it gets more annoying every time I hear it.

Its always been my view that more often than not, the people that want to start a new class are just looking for something different. If you've been running stock or 19t class for 3 years, maybe you want to try mod. So if there isn't already a mod class, you start one. Maybe you've been running sedan for 5 years straight and you and a couple buddies decide to try an F201 class. Or perhapes your sick of buying new batteries and brushes on a regular basis, so you decide to get together with other people who are also sick of it, and start a brushless/Lipo class.

There are plenty of reasons for starting a new class. Only ONE of which is negative. But that ONE seems to be what people love to toss out as soon as someone else suggest a new class.

"you want a new class....oh, you must be sick of getting beat"...

Give me a break...

In fact, in the couple years that I spent co-race directing in this area, I can't remember ONE TIME, when people expressed that they were sick of losing so they wanted to start a different class. On the contrary, most of the time, people where looking to move up to more competitive classes, just for the opportunity to compete against the better drivers.

So I don't know where all these 'disgruntled losers' are, but I haven't seen them. Just people looking for something different and maybe to stave off boredom with a particular class or type of racing.
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Old 09-30-2006, 02:28 PM   #41
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I am affraid i do not see the SPEEDS as being the problem at all.

Its the amount of kit you have to buy to get your car going that fast. Ie. expensive chargers, high spec batteries, motor run in stations, comm lathes, discharge trays, eualizing boards, etc etc.

Lipo and brushless would solve an awful lot of expense issues. In my opinion it would solve more problems that it would create.

You can argue the higher speeds wear your car out more but i dont really agree, i would much rather buy a new belt or diff outdrive than new brushes etc every meeting.
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Old 10-01-2006, 11:52 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheyhoe
I am affraid i do not see the SPEEDS as being the problem at all.

Its the amount of kit you have to buy to get your car going that fast. Ie. expensive chargers, high spec batteries, motor run in stations, comm lathes, discharge trays, eualizing boards, etc etc.

Lipo and brushless would solve an awful lot of expense issues. In my opinion it would solve more problems that it would create.

You can argue the higher speeds wear your car out more but i dont really agree, i would much rather buy a new belt or diff outdrive than new brushes etc every meeting.
LiPo and brushless will simply create as many 'must-haves' as we have today, they'll just be different. Why do we think that there will not be 'must-have' chargers, batteries, PC programs to set your speedos, special discharge units and ranges of armatures for the LiPo/brushless scene?

Currently LiPo and brushless are in their infancy, so it all seems very easy as there is very limited choice. Additionally, both technologies are apparently superior to the existing technology, so if I buy LiPo/brushless I buy performance advantages that mean I can leave many 'must-haves' of today, behind. It won't last like that.

As it sits, your investment in an Orion LiPo is about to be superceded by a Kokam LiPo, and your recently purchased LRP/Reedy/Novak brushless will be blown away at the Club by the new Trinity/GM sintered armature motors, and then there are the new PC programs for your speedo, the LiPo equalisers and voltage regulators, and...

We all thought that when we saw the new Yokomo-style brushed motors, and the 1700SCE cells, and the MOSFET speedos, and the UFRA foam tyres, and the... that they would make it all easier, and RC had no further to go. We were wrong every time, and we are wrong now about LiPo/brushless solving the expense issues.

Just as many of us look fondly back at 12th and Off-Road as they were 10 years ago, we will look back on the simplicity of brushed motors and NiMh cells in years to come. Sure, it's different, but in terms of simplicity, that age has long since past. If you think there are too many classes now, then just wait until LiPo/LiMn/LiOn/sintered brushless/non-sintered brushless/... has arrived!!
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Old 10-01-2006, 03:02 PM   #43
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My local carpet track has 3 main classes.

4 cell stock motors on rubber of foam
6 cell stock motors on rubber
19turn/Mod on foams.

I'm a big fan of the 4 cell class. I run it and it's a blast. The races are competitive and that's the important part.

I also saw this on another forum and thought it fitting:

HOW TO HAVE FUN RACING R/C CARS!

1. Stay within your budget
2. Travel to any races that are available!
3. Chat/Talk to anyone around about r/c(bs is where it is at)!
4. Don't leave your matainence to the last minute.
5. Realize that only one person wins, set personal goals.
6. Don't go for the bling, go for the reliability. Tires are more important that aluminum shocks.
7. Don't make the wife/gf angry by racing too much.
8. Don't be afraid to ask a question.
9. Don't feel frustrated or mad, because a bad day racing is better than your best day at work.
10. Just participate.
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Old 10-01-2006, 03:16 PM   #44
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How does the nitro crowd manage with only one class per scale? Around where I live if you race nitro you run 1/10 scale nitro touring or you run 1/8 scale. It seems easier than the electric guys have it? Stock and mod seemed like enough classes here, 19 turn has just diluted the crowd.
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Old 10-02-2006, 11:16 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Big KAT
How does the nitro crowd manage with only one class per scale? Around where I live if you race nitro you run 1/10 scale nitro touring or you run 1/8 scale. It seems easier than the electric guys have it? Stock and mod seemed like enough classes here, 19 turn has just diluted the crowd.
Probably because it's really easy with electric to change motors. Therefore people have more speed options and have their own personal preferences.
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