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Old 09-13-2006, 10:40 AM   #61
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This thread is kinda like watching fanboys argue with anti-fanboys. I wonder if there is this many "less filling/tastes great" differing opinions and Internet expose's over firecrackers that *are* designed to explode.

In the interest of documenting all things that become dangerous when overfilled, I'm going to put too much bread in my toaster, turn it on and video what happens. Fire! AAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
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Old 09-13-2006, 10:48 AM   #62
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[QUOTE=TPhalen]First off, I can see that you haven't learned anything. And I can see why, when someone states their opinion, and you respond, instead of stating your opinion, it's more of an attack.

I have learned plenty. It seems that while others blast the Li-Po craze, you cloak your support for sub c cells in "matter of factly ways". Yes, it was an attack. Yes it was directed at you. I can attack and bring forth debate with someone who can give excellent retorts and points of validity. That being said, if you work for a manufacturer, it would behoove you to alert your constituants and higher ups to read these boards. All of a sudden, people are worrying about what happens to kids using li-po? Man, maybe it's me, but I thought this hobby was cluttered with the biggest kids of them all....MEN! With all the chatter thats going on, and the buzz in the LHS's, at the races and events, and on the web, anyone who just goes out and buys Li-Po's and doesnt do something correctly, is probably too stupid to be in our sport anyways! Thats right, I said it!
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Old 09-13-2006, 10:57 AM   #63
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I personally think they are awesome, you can charge them the day before and not worry about loosing voltage. They also have the potential for much longer run time and voltage. With just a little more push from the manufacturers they could really take off in the RC car segment.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:02 AM   #64
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Tony - I appreciate what you said so far.

However there is product liability in every product that is offerred out there in the market. Thats what product liability insurance is for. In fact, given the nature of the hobby, theres a lot of potential for liability.

I want to point out that the risk of any company offering LiPos is no different than any other risks that have already been taken in the offering of hobby products. Here's one obvious example, nitro cars

The hobby industry made a good chunk of change selling these Nitro Bombs in RTR Joe Schmo form. Plenty of inexperienced people bought them because it was the cool thing to have and all they wanted to know was how fast can it go? Boxes were labelled in big letters 50mph or 60mph. So how safe would you feel if little "Timmy" down the street lost control of his 60mph "dual engine" monster stuck in third gear?

That situation problably never happened because "Timmy" had to buy the car at the local hobby store where the salesman said that "Timmy" is too young and not "responsible" enough to handle such a nitro car. The same goes with the sale and usage of LiPo products. The hobby industry expects the "hobby retailer" to educate, inform, and qualify their customers as a part of selling the product.

That being said, I want to comment that my experience with LiPo this past weekend at the KO race was easy and smooth. No discharging, cooling or battery management required. Just keep it plugged into the charger in between heats and thats it. I think once more and more people find this experience to be the same, acceptance of LiPos will be more likely.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:04 AM   #65
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The worst thing about being a fan of LiPo is the other guys that are fans of LiPo. It's embarrassing to think we might all be lumped together based on similar ideals.

Some LiPo is safer than others. People parading around videos of cells blowing up need to also parade around the videos of the safer cells that have nails driven through them while they're being charged, and do nothing more than let off some smoke. Please, don't be a bunch of assholes with your scary LiPo videos, and tell the whole story.

Do your homework. Buy quality cells if LiPo interests you. If a cell is damaged, dispose of it properly. It's all very well-documented, and easy to understand. If you're not smart enough or responsible enough to handle these batteries, then hold your NiMH tight, and pray that you never have to let them go.

LiPo in its current form may not be the future of R/C, but something like it will be. Look around you... EVERY other industry has moved on.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:15 AM   #66
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Here is one of what happens with SubC....
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125601 (know this only pictures, and not a video, but you still get the point.)

If you are going to post videos of LiPos blowing up, be fair and post the same for your subCs....

And another thing..... Tsquare posted that most of the LiPo users at the KO race moved back to subcs because "people running lipo's swithched back to their IB's for the mains, primerily because they felt they had more punch with the IB's".

Point - anyone that thinks LiPo is a advanatage well this seems to not be ture currently. Maybe in time, but currently that idea was blowin apart....

So let me race at a disadvantage, with my LiPo, and leave me alone. If you are worried about a fire, don't pit next to me. If I burn my self, it is my problem.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:30 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YR4Dude
Tony - I appreciate what you said so far.

However there is product liability in every product that is offerred out there in the market. Thats what product liability insurance is for. In fact, given the nature of the hobby, theres a lot of potential for liability.

I want to point out that the risk of any company offering LiPos is no different than any other risks that have already been taken in the offering of hobby products. Here's one obvious example, nitro cars

The hobby industry made a good chunk of change selling these Nitro Bombs in RTR Joe Schmo form. Plenty of inexperienced people bought them because it was the cool thing to have and all they wanted to know was how fast can it go? Boxes were labelled in big letters 50mph or 60mph. So how safe would you feel if little "Timmy" down the street lost control of his 60mph "dual engine" monster stuck in third gear?

That situation problably never happened because "Timmy" had to buy the car at the local hobby store where the salesman said that "Timmy" is too young and not "responsible" enough to handle such a nitro car. The same goes with the sale and usage of LiPo products. The hobby industry expects the "hobby retailer" to educate, inform, and qualify their customers as a part of selling the product.

That being said, I want to comment that my experience with LiPo this past weekend at the KO race was easy and smooth. No discharging, cooling or battery management required. Just keep it plugged into the charger in between heats and thats it. I think once more and more people find this experience to be the same, acceptance of LiPos will be more likely.

You're right. We have to trust the Hobby Shop to educate the people buying the product. MOST (and I use this term loosely) employ younger kids that are, possibly, a good part of the RC industry. They know what is good, what is fast, and could possbily even race. THOSE employees are going to sell what the customer wants...not was is the most logical choice for that particular person.

Case in point. A couple summers ago I worked at a local Hobby People here in Fountain Valley. Customer comes in...fresh, NO RC experience, and says he wants the fastest thing out there in electric. What would you have done? Sell him the 6 turn motor, the 7 cell pack, top of the line X_Brand car, charger and radio....or educate the person on what to possibly start with to learn and upgrade from there?

This person was sold, in the above scenario, the 6 turn motor, 7 cell pack, top of the line this that and the other....some $800 or something like that. They went home, built it, ran it in the street and destroyed it on the first pass. Brought it back and I happened to be there to take the heat. Did I care???? Ya, I cared because THIS is the person that could have been sold LiPos and burned down their house, resulting in possible lawsuits against the company (and, we all know, California is a lawsuit-happy state!).

This, of course, is not something that happens at every store, but the uneducated customer enters a hobby store every day.

And bxpitbull, easy to say that if the customer does something wrong with our product that they are too stupid to and shouldn't use it anyway. It would be great if that's where it would end....but it won't. It's just not that easy.

Again, I'm not against LiPos at all. I'm not 'blasting' them or cloaking my support. I just don't think that the LiPo is the next big cell....I think it's our transition cell to something as powerful but MUCH more user friendly....and safe. Something you don't have to charge in an ammo box. Come on, isn't THAT a little extreme?
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:46 AM   #68
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Um Phalen, did they run it in the house? No. Did he crash due to the fact that he shouldnt have been sold a 6 turn in the first place without learning how to drive first? Yes. Could he have hit someone and sued anyways? Yes. If someone doesnt sells Li-Po without stressing the importance of extreme care and something happens, should they be sued? YES. If someone is careless enuf (or ignorant) to sell li-po without proper disclaimer advice and instruction given to a customer, they should be sued.

I work in sales and for the market I represent, I analyze and go over with a fine tooth comb, every client, product and service that I bring to my Company. Because our clients advertise to the military, I take extreme precaution of what I will and will not accept. That being said, any unscrupulous hobby store employee (mind you, employee, not owner) that is selling stuff just to move product, deserves to be sued! Period!
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:53 AM   #69
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Tony! Wassup dude?
Not all lipos are created equal. Some are inherently safer than others. Lipos that are branded by a distributor with a hidden manufacturer should be handled with more care.

ROAR needs to step up to the plate on this one.

They need to set up test protocol guidlines to qualify cells for RC car use. This can mirror the current UNT1-T8 and UL1642 transportation safety guidelines. These tests include, but are not limited to short circuit testing, abnormal charge, forced discharge, crush, impact, shock, vibration, heating, temp cycling, pressure testing etc.

A lot of the lower cost lipos will not pass these tests. The ones that do should be safe enough for the "idiot" comsumer.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:57 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxpitbull
Because our clients advertise to the military, I take extreme precaution of what I will and will not accept. That being said, any unscrupulous hobby store employee (mind you, employee, not owner) that is selling stuff just to move product, deserves to be sued! Period!
Great. Then get on that. Start with you local HS and start informing them that if they don't start educating the customer and selling stuff just to sell stuff that they will be sued.

The employees are 16/17/18/19 year old kids doing this to make money so they can put gas in their cars and take their girlfriend on a date....not multi-million dollar companies 'advertising with the military'. I've been there, done that....those kids are NOT going to 'stressing the importance of extreme care' of LiPos. Well, I shouldn't lump them all together....SOME might, but those are the ones that give a, ummm, poop. Most won't.

Look, I agree with you about the importance of LiPos and the progression it could produce. And, if I'm wrong and the LiPo is the next SUPER-HUGE thing that lasts as long as NiCds or NiMh, I'll admit it. I just think, FOR THE MAINSTREAM, LiPos' is not the answer.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:58 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linger
Tony! Wassup dude?
Not all lipos are created equal. Some are inherently safer than others. Lipos that are branded by a distributor with a hidden manufacturer should be handled with more care.

ROAR needs to step up to the plate on this one.

They need to set up test protocol guidlines to qualify cells for RC car use. This can mirror the current UNT1-T8 and UL1642 transportation safety guidelines. These tests include, but are not limited to short circuit testing, abnormal charge, forced discharge, crush, impact, shock, vibration, heating, temp cycling, pressure testing etc.

A lot of the lower cost lipos will not pass these tests. The ones that do should be safe enough for the "idiot" comsumer.

LT, wassup brother. I knew YOU'D have something to say about this.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:32 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxpitbull
I have learned plenty. It seems that while others blast the Li-Po craze, you cloak your support for sub c cells in "matter of factly ways". Yes, it was an attack. Yes it was directed at you.
You seriously weaken your position when you attack someone like Tony in the matter that you do. Tony is without a doubt one of the most credible, knowledgeable, friendly, helpful, and stand-up people in the industry. I put his integrity and professionalism on the same level as guys such as Todd Hodge and Matt Francis. Attacking him on a personal level doesn't accomplish anything. If anything, it makes those of us who are Pro-LiPo look worse and hurts our positioning. That being said...

One thing that Tony mentioned is the guy who goes into the LHS and buys the fastest thing he can get. Well, at least there, right or wrong, there is someone there to advise them in their purchase. What about the person who orders online? They don't get a whole lot of hand holding or direction besides the information on the screen at that moment. I think this does create a concern and I can see and to some point agree with Tony here. However, I think in terms of this discussion we're talking more about the experienced racer who wants to use his LiPo pack at a race facility. If the dealers and tracks step up and set basic safety guidelines (like charging containers), there won't be an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bxpitbull
That being said, if you work for a manufacturer, it would behoove you to alert your constituants and higher ups to read these boards.
They already do...Big brother IS watchin
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:33 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPhalen
Great. Then get on that. Start with you local HS and start informing them that if they don't start educating the customer and selling stuff just to sell stuff that they will be sued.

The employees are 16/17/18/19 year old kids doing this to make money so they can put gas in their cars and take their girlfriend on a date....not multi-million dollar companies 'advertising with the military'. I've been there, done that....those kids are NOT going to 'stressing the importance of extreme care' of LiPos. Well, I shouldn't lump them all together....SOME might, but those are the ones that give a, ummm, poop. Most won't.

Look, I agree with you about the importance of LiPos and the progression it could produce. And, if I'm wrong and the LiPo is the next SUPER-HUGE thing that lasts as long as NiCds or NiMh, I'll admit it. I just think, FOR THE MAINSTREAM, LiPos' is not the answer.
Finally, we agree on some items. But, if you read closely, no one is saying to have Li-Po's replace sub c, we want it to be approved so people can RACE with them. I for one, wouldnt want some bozo who happens to have a rich dad pitting next to me without knowing the hazards.

Wait a minute, just read your signature. Am I talking to Tony Phalen, THE Tony Phalen? Or are you a poser riding his jock?
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:47 PM   #74
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Quote:
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Am I talking to Tony Phalen, THE Tony Phalen? Or are you a poser riding his jock?
Hahaha, now THAT doens't sound sarcastic!

Anyway, I'd agree in racing, but maybe make it for the upper classes....this keeps the noobs from going out and buying them to go race and posing a risk to those around them in the pits. Just a thought.


And, thanks. Mr. Katzer. Appreciate the comments. What do you need????
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:52 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPhalen
Hahaha, now THAT doens't sound sarcastic!

Anyway, I'd agree in racing, but maybe make it for the upper classes....this keeps the noobs from going out and buying them to go race and posing a risk to those around them in the pits. Just a thought.
Yeah, I think if anything either make it a seperate class or if you're going to run Mod/19T then you could use LiPo. Main thing would be to neutralize any perceived voltage advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TPhalen
And, thanks. Mr. Katzer. Appreciate the comments. What do you need????
You know me too well Tony, lol. Naw, just calling it like I see it. You and I can have a heated discussion, not get anywhere by the end and, while I may not agree with you, I'd still respect you and your experience you bring to the table. Just notice, none of this revolves around your driving Oh, and tell Bob I say hi
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