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Old 09-10-2006, 11:13 PM   #1
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Default Tough Challenges to deal with

With the emergence of brushless there are some significant challenges facing us in the racing community. I think it is time for the smaller, racer oriented manufacturers with a vested interest to put down some of the factors that need to be considered to maintain a healthy racing community.

No bull, no flaming.. just points of view. We do not have to agree, but we do have to understand everyone’s position to have a chance at a reasonable solution. ROAR does not have the answers and I am sure they would appreciate our input.

I will start with this… to have truly equal products in spec classes below mod we have to be very careful with brushless. In mod let’er rip.

Brushless really has no advantage in spec classes other than it is easy. If it does then it is not truly equal or fair. We need to give all technologies a fair chance to compete. It makes no sense to throw away an entire industry of small businesses and the people that truly make the racing events happen because we did not think it through.

Brushed motors do not need to be faster, they just need to last longer and take less maintenance.

We are all about brushless! It is an awesome technology and here to stay regardless of what the sanctioning bodies decide. We sell both brushless and brushed products and truly feel that choices and price points will keep our industry healthy. Some just like to drive and some really enjoy the science. Let’s let technology fight it out and consumer preference decide with rules that allow everyone to compete.

As I understand it the first brushless stock equivalent is as fast as the very best tuned stock brushed motors, but pulls harder…. So it appears it is a clear winner by being faster and easier. Perhaps it should be equal to an out of the box typical brushed motor so those who are willing to put in the effort and apply their skills are rewarded with a slight advantage. As it stands it appears to be just the opposite.

Personally I think those who have the skills and desire to put in the effort to pro tune their motors should have a slight advantage. Easy and winning at the upper most levels does not belong in the same sentence. Maybe I am old school…..

For the rest ,majority, of the market we cannot decide for them. They really could care less what we do with stock and spec stock products. They just want the fastest stuff available. So lets figure out what works for us to maintain a healthy race market. If it is not true that “what wins on Sunday sells on Monday” then we are just wasting our money sponsoring these events anyway and letting it die will have little effect on good business.

If we do not handle this properly I think sanctioned racing will be damaged at the upper levels with a reduction in sponsors available and the death of many products that support brushed motors. Good business would be for everyone to survive and the consumer to have choices that can all compete fairly.

Jim Campbell
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Old 09-10-2006, 11:41 PM   #2
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I do not deal with motors besides my own vehicles. If you don't mind I myself have a few opinions. I agree with what you have said about making the brushless equal. A stock motor out of the box & say x brushless should be equal. I also think all the brushless systems should be the same base. Have an agreement between all the manufacturers.

Then people can choose between companies in a better way. If brushed & brushless are equal people will choose what they want. New comers, people in just for fun or with less time brushless. The veterans or your more serious racers brushed probably. I think running brushless will be the new wave pretty soon though.

I know alot of new comers or people sick of motor maintence choose brushless. Personally I still have yet to understand the tuning part of brushed motors. I can understand alot of the other things that come with rc racing or just the hobby in general. Just the what brushes & springs for which track & what not I don't get.

In all honesty if brushless was an offered class with all our classes. I would probably be running brushless in every class that I could. Currently they are not, nor can I afford a system for each of my cars. This is something I am glad was brought up. I don't want to see the big guys blowing over the little guys.

What I have wrote is what my personal opinion is on this. I just race I do not tune motors in anyway. Please do not blow what I have said into pieces. Like the tekin prez said keep this to a conversation. No flame wars or anything of that nature.

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Old 09-11-2006, 12:34 AM   #3
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I agree that for spec classes, motors should be equal, regardless of what kind of motor it is.
Regarding faster and easier and "those who choose to pro tune their motors should have a slight advantage" I have to disagree, even if this is a reality already.
I can get one of the fast guys at my club to tune my stock motor better than I can, so then why should I get an advantage if I didn't do the work?
I think the only reason someone should be faster is because they practice more and are a better driver. That is the principle of spec classes, it's the driver, not the motor.
Regardless of motor, there should be a level playing field in spec.

I agree with you about the greater majority not caring what ROAR decides. They want the fastest and easiest motors. Whichever company gives it to them will be successfull.

I would not like to see companies that support brushed technology exclusively go under, however, if any company closes it's eye's to their consumers needs or wants, it's not the consumers or ROAR's fault for their demise.
With that being said, I also don't understand how any company can expect to be very successful while exclusively marketing a product to such a small market as the RC racing one, when there is a much larger market of RC consumers. They could easily start supporting/promoting non/ROAR approved brushed motors and gain the extra market share.

Take CastleCreations, totally illegal motors for ROAR races. Hard to find in stock. Castle was marketing RC planes, then 1/18th scale. Now 1/10th. ROAR? screw 'em! Consumers want fast and easy, with very programmable ESC's. Castle is giving it to them. I applaud them for that.

I know Orion has jumped on the brushless and lipoly bandwagon in RC planes and has started a product line there. Giving the people what they want. yeah baby. Some guys do throw 540 cans in thier hotliners and LRM's with 16cells, and would probably love to see some companies expanding their lines. ROAR does not apply to them, and there's a lot of those guys out there.

If Trinity or Orion was making and marketing some wicked hot totally illegal brushed motor, I think it would be moving off the shelves. ( i don't know if they are or not actually, just using them as an example)
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:37 AM   #4
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That's the challenge... making all brushless motors equal without stiffling choices of technology. The current legal designs are not bad, just very unique compared to the rest of the brushless motors in the world which does not foster fair competition, growth or choices for the consumer. Can't blame them, they were first and did a great job getting it started.

Sounds easy to have seperate classes, but most tracks say they do not have time to double their classes or enough people to fill them. People like to race in a larger group if possible. Its more fun to make the A if there is a B.

Really best if we figure out how to keep them together.

We do not market exclusively to the race market. We use it as a proving ground and advertising. Also since we do not make rtr's they are a primary market for us. Besides I like it and I whether or not we get rich we are going to have fun. Racers built Tekin and it is what we have always been about.

This thread is not about the general market... It is suppose to be about keeping racing healthy.

If we just open the flood gates there will be no classes other than mod that are truly fair. If we be to restrictive there will be few choices. Our goal is to make racers a larger part of the market and we do not accomplish that by ignoring them for our own financial gains.

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Old 09-11-2006, 01:01 AM   #5
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i kinda think stock and 19t will never die as it is hard to have a spec brushless class?
i honestly think brushless needs to become as easy as brushed in the sense of no thermal shut downs any more and also a little bit cheaper.
id like to see a spec brushless class but its a bit hard to do any sugestions?
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Old 09-11-2006, 01:09 AM   #6
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No, none of the companies are marketing just the racers, but technology is being stifled to some extent because it appears that manufacters seem to try keep things under the ROAR umbrella.

My only point I was tring to make there was regarding smaller companies focused exclusively on racers. I just think as a business practice, knowing that racers are a small portion of the market, it would do them well to service the bashers who just want speed and simplicity.

If a company can drive it's income off of a greater market, then it can invest more into the racing market as well. I see that as a win for racers and bashers.

sorry if i veered off topic with that. got on a run typing that prior post...

AUS, saying that brushless needs not to thermal anymore is like telling the stock guys to quit gearing so high they desolder thier motor wires. That's usually a setup issue. At least each time i thermaled a brushless, and desoldered my wires...

Perhaps the stock regulations could open up to allow bearings, which could speed up the brushed motors, and get around the issue of brushless having bearings.
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Old 09-11-2006, 01:22 AM   #7
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Agreed... Our system will be released as non-roar legal and run with any system on the planet. Stupid fast! and long run times with Tekin Lipos. It will also be able to run the current roar legal motors and when it all settles out we will release our own legal motor to support our loyal racers.

Now hopefully some of those with a vested interest will show up here and help us figure out how it is going to settle out.

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Old 09-11-2006, 01:39 AM   #8
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I think the only way to have a spec class is by using OEM motors.
One big company(Doesn't have to be a RC specific) make all the spec motor and everyone else "oem" or "rebadge" them, The only spec a RC Vendor could change is the color of the can. By using only one manufacture, the cost will also go down.
If you only set up rules for a everyone one to follow, it might perform close to each other. but you will always find someone trying to get an advantage by maybe changing airgap of the magnets, changing the compostition of the rotor, pack the wires differently, etc etc.
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:48 AM   #9
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Hey Jim,

Mark here, we met at Offroad modified nats, I showed you those armatures on your laptop. Well you know I have an opinion....

perhaps both brushed and brushless spec class motors could get a standard rule on time of acceleration to full rpm and an rpm limit. Make the manufacturers have a tolerance of range for both the motor and the speed control. This would allow for powerband changes on brushless motors and different brush and spring combinations on brushed motors for different applications and driving styles. Tracks would also need a simple and cheap device for testing legality.

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Last edited by Scrubb; 09-11-2006 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 09-11-2006, 10:11 AM   #10
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With the way things currently are there needs to be room for both. I don't think companies with a major vested interests in brushed motors (springs, arms, cans, brushes) would want to be put under with the BL technology.

Being an average long time racer I have invested time and money into brushed tech. I have everything I need to make and maintain the motors, short of winding and zapping. Would be willing to give up all the maintenance? Sure in a heart beat but it is easier to maintain what I have instead of buying 3 or 4 new systems which would be big money more than I care to spend. I could not just buy one, because I would need a back-up in case something happened. Also usually I don't like to be the 1st one in line when something new comes out. I would rather wait till the tech gets proven, prices drop and classes are available.

If I were new to the hobby, like one of my friends is, I might consider going BL 1st because all my money is not tied up in brushed tech and it is "easier". Although my friend being new to the hobby is a decent driver does not have the finesse in using BL tech on the track, which means more frustration and broken parts.

Another friend who is heavy into BL tech has been able to hold off sponsored drivers in open mod. He is another average longtime racer who got fed-up with brushed tech and switched to BL. BL tech made sense to him because he literally loves to run every day.

If I had to forcast a future to BL tech there needs to be some templates for companies to stick to making "legal" BL systems. I could see 3 levels for BL in cars a beginner, a "19t type" and an "open mod" level. Maybe a new terms needs to be created like BL1, BL2 and BL3 in the spirit of SCCA with GT1 - 5.

I do think BL is here to stay, it will take time for an alignment within the tech to happen.
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Old 09-11-2006, 10:54 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by cfwdude
If a company can drive it's income off of a greater market, then it can invest more into the racing market as well. I see that as a win for racers and bashers.
This is 100% correct. This is why the larger companies continue to grow and the smaller ones revolve in and out of business. There will always be room and need for both.

Here is an example two companies who took different paths and I present them as examples of both philosophies:

Traxxas and Corally, some argue that Corally makes some of the best chassis exclusive to there needs on the planet, however it is also safe to say that Traxxas if they wanted to could have a simmilar car tomorrow if they chose to as they have the capitol do what ever they want.

It is a balancing act between business and personal desires. Many in this industry are more concerned with there product performance then how well it moves and there is an argument for both.

"Racing is about the journey not the destination if it wasn't it would simply be called Arriving"

"The solution is people need to spend more of their efforts on promoting and finding more people to race with, rather then a personal quest to form a class that they can win at."
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:18 PM   #12
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Why even wait for rules to be adjusted ?

As a racer , My main concern is cost and performance , if there`s a better motor or battery , tire grip, ect ....

I`m gona buy it ...

Race it....

I will care less how it comform`s to sanction rules like Roar`s .....

Roar will just have to keep up if it wish`s to be in step with changes made in product development....
I`m not even gona wait for them , so Tekin bring on your new motor`s !!

If their better I`m buying !!!
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:57 PM   #13
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I think you have to be real careful here, open the floodgates, and it will be a nightmare trying to work out which system to buy. I know over in America, the ROAR governing body overseas some LARGE meetings but most clubs do their own thing, in the UK, a non-legal setup would be more than useless for most racers.

Personaly, I think there is room for a legal and illegal systems.

Stock, ah, now there is the problem, you have a a few ways of going here.

Option 1:
ESC's with a rev limiter, so your motor can't rev beyond XXXX rpm

Option 2:
Cap a winding limit, so it leaves open a little tuning on the motor side by the manufacturers.

Option 3:
Run Brushless as-
4 cell (replace stock)
5 cell (replace 19t)
6 cell + lipo (mod)

On another note, I think it will force out a LOT of small tuners.
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Old 09-11-2006, 01:51 PM   #14
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Default Well, you gotta start somewhere....

Companies, who plan to offer brushless products for stock and 19 turn racing, need to put them out there for consideration.

Since ROAR will not be establishing rules for stock and 19 turn brushless until 2008, there is plenty of time for all the companies to test and qualify their own motors as 27t or 19t equivalents and release them to be judged during the 2007 racing season.

ROAR is understandably reluctant to write rules while there is "only one manufacturer" who is offering stock equivalent brushless motors.

Novak is that "only one" (so far) and has offered the 13.5 turn and the 10.5 turn motors for consideration during the '07 racing season--at local races only.

So, sensorless motor companies, where are your stock equivalent motors?
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Old 09-11-2006, 01:59 PM   #15
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Mr. Black,

"It is a balancing act between business and personal desires. Many in this industry are more concerned with there product performance then how well it moves and there is an argument for both."

I definitely applaude any company for having the drive to focus on producing thier absolute best products regardless of how much they sell. There will always be a market, however small, for such 'boutique' shops as long as their products perform.
But I think there is a difference in comparing large and small chassis makers with say Novak (brushless) and Tom G. Tuner (top notch brushed motor tuner)
The chances of a shift in technology in chassis will not eliminate the need for a chassis, Corally can continue to make chassis regardless of anybody, or anything.
Say theoritically brushed tech dies off, Motors still exist, regardless of what type of motor. But the brushed motor tuners rely on someone elses product to be available and be in demand for their business to thrive.

I know a few guys that were really good at adjusting carbs on cars. Now they do fuel injection. Move on or step aside.


To say you don't care about the rules of racing, even at club level, sheesh. Sucks for the guys you race against. with that mentality, why aren't you running a mamba5700 with a 3cell lipo in stock?
This is an exaggeration of your statement, just thrown out there as an example, not to flame or insult you.

As much as I'd like to run brushless in stock and 19t, until it's allowed by my club, I won't.

Any one should be concerned with the rules that apply to the racing first, whether it's club rules or ROAR. If you aren't complying, your a cheater, not a racer.

The larger companies need to produce the brushless equivalents as best they can, accept that they will not be ROAR legal initially, and try to drive ROAR to change from the club levels up.

Back to possible solutions...
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