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Old 09-07-2006, 05:00 AM   #46
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I just hope when brushless takes over that all the motors are the same. at the minute you can sometimes get two of the same motors and with the same gearing etc in the same car one is noticeably faster. And they are kind of expensive to be buying pot luck to get "A fast One".

Still love brushless though.
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Old 09-07-2006, 05:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by pheyhoe
I just hope when brushless takes over that all the motors are the same. at the minute you can sometimes get two of the same motors and with the same gearing etc in the same car one is noticeably faster. And they are kind of expensive to be buying pot luck to get "A fast One".

Still love brushless though.
You're gonna be disappointed. Manufacturing tolerances will always be an issue. You can see it in brushless motors by using an inductance meter. While BL may help create more parity when it comes to motors, it's not going to eliminate this issue completely. It remains to be seen whether or not variances in manufacturing will be significant enough to affect performance on the track. So far, we haven't heard much about that, and there's definitely a strong BL following, especially in oval where top speed truly is king.

What I can't figure out is who's more evil? The racers that want to exploit manufacturing tolerances to gain an edge, or the companies (like battery matchers) that are willing to buy a ton of something and then sell you the best of the bunch at an inflated price so you can keep up. Neither one seems particularly nice, but that's the spirit of racing in all forms.
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Old 09-07-2006, 07:00 AM   #48
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Syndrome, actually....Danny at SMC, Myself, ErnieP, and Rick Howhart are all AGAINST the move to 4 cell.....my two issues with it are that it completely eliminates lipo from the battery scene, as a 3.7 volt cell will never keep up with even the worst 4.8 volt pack regardless of how many MaH the lipo has.....and they will never make a custom lipo cell for RC, as the market is just too small, all our battery technology is stolen....

Second, like Rick has stated.....while a good 4 cell pack will still be fast.....a bad 4 cell will not be for the hobbyist who doesn't race....and since all the car will be designed around 4 cells, noobs will be strattled with a slow car that might turn them off from the hobby.

Syndrome, I must say though......of all the brushless fans, you for one, actually have a brain when it comes to the units not solving all the supposed problems.....it's good to see someone who is a fan of the motors realize that there will be good and bad motors and the like...

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Old 09-07-2006, 07:11 AM   #49
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I wonder what ROAR will legalize as far as batties go?

I think brushless will stay in the "MOD" realm for a while. I think trinity came out with the first rebuildable stock motor and it was adopted by ROAR, maybe the same thing needs to happen here on the brushless motor side.
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Old 09-07-2006, 07:27 AM   #50
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Syndrome, actually....Danny at SMC, Myself, ErnieP, and Rick Howhart are all AGAINST the move to 4 cell.....my two issues with it are that it completely eliminates lipo from the battery scene, as a 3.7 volt cell will never keep up with even the worst 4.8 volt pack regardless of how many MaH the lipo has.....and they will never make a custom lipo cell for RC, as the market is just too small, all our battery technology is stolen....
I appreciate you clearing that up, and apologize for lumping everybody together. It's good to see that major players in the R/C business are behind protecting the sport, even if it's possibly in conflict with their own interests.

Quote:
Syndrome, I must say though......of all the brushless fans, you for one, actually have a brain when it comes to the units not solving all the supposed problems.....it's good to see someone who is a fan of the motors realize that there will be good and bad motors and the like...
Thank you, though I'm not sure I can handle the burden of being the voice of reason in the BL crowd. :-)

There are a lot of people that think BL/LiPo is going to be the great equalizer in the R/C "arms race." They're wrong. It only seems like that now because the technology is new, and all the tricks haven't been discovered yet, but the signs are already there. Guys in the oval crowd are trying rotors from different manufacturers to get their 4300's near the top of the allowed inductance, which is how they're being teched. I ran 3 different rotors in my 4300 during our club race this week, mostly out of curiosity, but also with the intention of using the one that worked the best. I suppose that makes me part of the problem.
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:28 AM   #51
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Consider this narrow minded and foolish if you like....but in my business I design racing shirts. I can look at the back of the current IIC Vegas shirt, the Snowbirds shirt and the Custom Works Open Wheel shirt and recognize a lot of names that stand to disappear if people decide to go exclusively brushless. I'm not just concerned that these "businesses" will be gone, but friends that we all race with that make a living directly and indirectly form the "outdated, aged technology" of the brushed motor will be less likely to be at future events with us. Consider door prizes,small cash sponsorships, team drivers... the ability to sell 15-20 pairs of brushes from their pit at an event for guys like Todd, Eric and others..and you'll realize that "the little guy" is still very necessary for us racers. I have one of my very best friends on the forefront of promoting brushless racing. He has his points, and I have mine and it's best if we don't discuss them anymore. It's a very divided issue for most of us. No offense to Novak or LRP as they appear to be the most obvious choice in this new era...but are they willing to step up and support the events and replace the many names that will no longer be listed as event sponsors on the back of the next shirt I do? Whether I do the shirts isn't the issue..but if Eddie O, T.P. ,E.A., Tag...etc. don't generate sales and can't fund their own trips let alone those team guys who race and offer support what do we really stand to gain? Please, I understand business and "the strong survive" argument...but think it through....these are guys who have been there developing, sponsoring and yes, making money off of us for years...and I surely don't want to see them gone.
Again, no offense to Novak and LRP...really...they offer the product and it's our choice to buy it or not. I'm not advocating a boycott or anything of the sort....really...I just don't want the family to get too small...ya know?

And the biggest concern of all.....how will Zubak gas up the Caddy if the world goes brushless and the drops biz is no more??!!!

dk
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:35 AM   #52
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Well put Dusty....
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:42 AM   #53
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Dusty-I have been meaning to post something like that every time one of these Lipo/bruhsless threads starts, but never could find the words that sounded right. YOu put it very well.
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Old 09-07-2006, 09:12 AM   #54
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If the potential to tune BL and match LiPo exists, then hopefully our friends will adapt and continue to stay in business. If they try to rely on guilt or loyalty to keep customers around, it's probably going to end poorly for them. I'm an empathetic guy, I don't want anybody to lose their job, or have their business fail. But people need to adjust and change with the industry, not fight change for the greater good to protect their own interests.

Both sides of this argument lean heavily upon the idea that the motors can't be tuned, and the batteries can't be matched. That doesn't seem to be the case. If the existing tuners and matchers decide they don't want any part of that business, someone else will undoubtedly step up and fill the gap for them.

And if there isn't enough benefit in tuning and matching to support a business, maybe you will see more sponsorship from the manufacturers, since they'll be getting credit for the performance of their motors, and not the tuners. Ernie will be the first to tell you guys are just tuning HIS motors, but does anybody print that in the magazines? The little guys steal a lot of thunder from the big companies in that regard. If someone wins with a C027, it's not Trinity's C027, it's br00d's or EA's or whomever. I can't imagine that makes Ernie want to throw a bunch of sponsorship dollars around.

But, I'm mostly an outsider looking in, so maybe I've got this all wrong. I'm sure someone will let me know.
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Old 09-07-2006, 09:20 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
Nope....I would say you'll see some motor tuners with their own line of brushless motors down the road. Other's will (As you say) die off slowly and find another niche in the market.

As it is now the brushless rules are even more open than brushed motors so it's really not very hard to get into the brushless market

Also you may want to think twice about wishing someones line of work "dies" as it could very well happen to you one day as well....Then we'll all sit around and make fun of you being jobless holding a sign "Will work for brushless rc motor"

EA
dont waste your breath EA, you should check out wild cherry's nonsense on the NW thread

he just jealous of motor tuning jobs, he cleans crappers for a living
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Old 09-07-2006, 09:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_robinson
dont waste your breath EA, you should check out wild cherry's nonsense on the NW thread

he just jealous of motor tuning jobs, he cleans crappers for a living
Yea I have heard/seen some of it!!

I guess I would be pissed at the world if I cleaned "crappers for a living" too!! LMAO

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Old 09-07-2006, 09:39 AM   #57
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Well said Sydrome.

It's obvious that some have thier own interests to protect and is not as open to brushless while others are exited at the prospect of less maintenance and doing more of what we should be doing while racing, having fun.

I do hope most of the companies that depend on brushed motors as a major source of income can adapt.
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Old 09-07-2006, 09:40 AM   #58
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I bet the machine he uses to polish the bathroom floors has a brushless in it...

ZING!
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Old 09-07-2006, 09:42 AM   #59
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Why not just let the market decide? That's how the rest of the Western world works.

I'm sure the current motor tuners and tweakers can expand and find their own niche.
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Old 09-07-2006, 11:09 AM   #60
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This is a great discussion, my real life is in the evaluation of business models and the economy. What I have found is this, there is not one business / industry today that is not being challanged by new technologies. The other thing I have found is that new / better technoliogies in a specific industry usually spur on a greater avenue for growth and proseperity for those industry participants. (note: This fact of increased business is not usually widely believed by the industry participants at the time the change is taking place.) In the case of RC racing, my personal example is as follows; I use to maintain three cars, and enter two racing classes at events. But, maintaining two sets of - batteries, race motors, and the cars themselves became to time consuming, (with the bulk of the maintence time used for batteries and motors) so now I only run one car, and one set of the items I need to enter one class of racing at events. The net effect for the industry is I now only use half the products that I use to (bodies, tires, motors, motor brushes, tire addatives, parts, etc, I obiviously spend less money). The benefit of BL / Lipo is reduced maintence time for the end user, which means they will be able to spend more time in the ares they choose, in my case, I will go back to running two cars again and two classes at events. I will also need to spend more money on the items I will need to race the cars (tires, bodies, parts, etc), but that is ok for me , because I like to race the car, not maintain it. The point is, I know the industry loses racers because they get tired of the work involved as well as the money. My sense is that BL / Lipo technology will open the sport to new people and give current racers a choice to save time, money or both, while getting an increase in their enjoyment of the sport (current racers will most likely stay in the sport longer). This should prove to be an increase in business for most in the industry, they will just need to be flexable and creative in their business approach. Embracing the new technology not fearing it will most likely prove to be the difference between a successful business transition in the industry and a failing one.

One last point, the comment made by Dusty Kemp about the loss of sponsors, will most likely play out as follows - the replacement of those old sponsors by the new upcoming sucessful ones that embraced the new technolgy and found a business model that works, and if their are fewer sponsors, then the ones that remain will most likely be sharing a larger share of a larger market and will be happy and motivated to make for the loss of the smaller sponsors, because their goal will be to continue the growth of their business vs their competitors. Sorry for the long post, but this is great discussion.
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