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Old 09-10-2006, 08:42 PM   #196
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What Big Al said is what is going to happen. The racers will decide on their own what they want and then we will make rules to support that.

2007 is the year when this will all naturally sort itself out.
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Old 09-10-2006, 08:48 PM   #197
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Default yep

I think we all agree..
'07 will be the year of the brushless.

and yes ...there will always be racers who like to tinker and tune the brushed motors to maximum performance....and please keep doing so...it gives us brushless racers more racers to run with.

Let's all race.....can't we all get along... ....ouch..who threw that lathe at me.
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Old 09-10-2006, 08:50 PM   #198
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It'll be funny when the TCS GT-3 class is removable endbell 540,LOL. Just kidding..I LOVE SILVER CAN CLASS.--Al
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Old 09-10-2006, 11:11 PM   #199
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Adrian…. If roar has it all figured out for 07 please enlighten me. Since it does take a considerable amount of time and money to develop a motor I am certainly interested in what the rules are going to be.

It is going to be challenging to figure out how to do it and take some time and cooperation to accomplish it. It would be suicide for sanctioned racing, which relies heavily on sponsor money, to have only one choice available. It would be horrible for the consumer to allow us to continually put out faster versions of motors within the minimal rules. It is also suicide to ignore it and think it will just work out on its own.

Considering your primary market is racers I would think you of all people would be interested in protecting racing rather than backing a technology just because it is easy. That is not good business. Good business is not always about good technology although I am all about letting it, forcing it, to advance.

Again Tekin is all about brushless! Brushless is awesome technology and here to stay regardless of what the sanctioning bodies decide. But we at Tekin are also all about racing and I still say brushed motors have a place. If we are going to have spec classes of racing with truly equal motors then any advantages brushless has …except it is easy… is meaningless. These are controlled speed classes that both technologies are capable of.

Brushed motors do not need to be faster, they need to last longer and take less maintenance to survive. Better technology would allow the same performance with less power, which would increase brush and comm life. It is not up to anyone but the brushed motor companies to decide if they want to make that investment and I doubt it would take $250K to give it a shot if the rules were reconsidered.

Brushed already has a powerful advantage for beginners… Cost. While in the long run brushless is cheaper for the serious racers, it is a lot more expensive to start with and compatibility is not universal. That contradicts the whole purpose of an affordable stock class and not everyone can afford multiple systems.

I posted a thread dedicated to the manufacturers with a vested interest to discuss how to deal with this. Without cooperation there are no choices, no racing and no chance little Joey can ever get started with his small pile of lawnmower money. Good business is leaving the door open for everyone and not making rash decisions without considering all the factors involved.

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Old 09-10-2006, 11:47 PM   #200
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Default my other 2 cents

just a thought...not trying to stir the pot.

but I would think that brushless is here to stay...in 1 form or another...as I would think most manufacturers are starting to realize...perhaps they need to wake up ROAR or other sanctioning bodies.

I really wouldn't say BL easier..because after all come that 50 to 80 run mark..you still have to do a bit of maintenance to the BL motor.
And is a stock type(yes i know technically not ROAR legal) BL motor faster than a stock brushed motor I don't think so....If car A and car B are equally geared...then it comes down to the driver.

I would love to see what Novak's comparison on sales percetanges especially on increases between the GTX and the GTB speed controllers....that would make for an interesting reflection of the RC market. As well as LRP sale percentages are from 06 to 07 when comparing the increase in sale volumes from brushed speedo to BL speedo.

do manufactureres expect an increase in brushed or BL and if so which is expected to have the higher sales growth and in addition which will provide the higher revenue per sale.
In addition, I would expect the manufacturers to start tapping the beginner rc hobbist with cheaper versions of BL systems....after all isn't that what they do now with brushed speedos and motors.

Someone posted on here earlier...they seemed to spend more time with buddies at the track...when they ran BL.....isn't that one of the biggest things any race track is about....A little competetion, hanging out with the buddies, away from the girl/wife..and getting a chance to spend a bit of money on what one would consider a bit of a luxury..yes a Hobby = luxury..just like an expensive starbucks something...except we buy a triple Xray with a side of GTB or Rage or Sphere..


Great thread...absolute good reading.

Last edited by olhipster1; 09-11-2006 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 09-10-2006, 11:55 PM   #201
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Adrian…. If roar has it all figured out for 07 please enlighten me. Since it does take a considerable amount of time and money to develop a motor I am certainly interested in what the rules are going to be.

The Mod rules are in place. As far as Stock and Spec mod classes no one knows. BL technology it too new for anyone to say exactly what the rules should be. If we do that now and get it wrong we will be doing a lot of damage that would need to get fixed. Its better to let racers run club races this year and figure out for them selves what they want to do. Mixed or separate classes, is a 13.5 the right BL 27T equivalent, What is a BL 19T equvalent...a 10.5, 9.5 or 8.5? We dont know and we wont know until we run these motor on carpet, asphalt in the winter and in the heat of summer.

If you are asking about what the motor construction should be for these lower power motors I would say they are all baased on the mod teardowns. The onlylinit would be the winds.


It is going to be challenging to figure out how to do it and take some time and cooperation to accomplish it. It would be suicide for sanctioned racing, which relies heavily on sponsor money, to have only one choice available. It would be horrible for the consumer to allow us to continually put out faster versions of motors within the minimal rules. It is also suicide to ignore it and think it will just work out on its own.

I agree. But we need to know what the rules will be limiting before we make the rules. This all falls into a logical progression

Considering your primary market is racers I would think you of all people would be interested in protecting racing rather than backing a technology just because it is easy. That is not good business. Good business is not always about good technology although I am all about letting it, forcing it, to advance.

I totally agree with that

Again Tekin is all about brushless! Brushless is awesome technology and here to stay regardless of what the sanctioning bodies decide. But we at Tekin are also all about racing and I still say brushed motors have a place. If we are going to have spec classes of racing with truly equal motors then any advantages brushless has …except it is easy… is meaningless. These are controlled speed classes that both technologies are capable of.

Brushed motors do not need to be faster, they need to last longer and take less maintenance to survive. Better technology would allow the same performance with less power, which would increase brush and comm life. It is not up to anyone but the brushed motor companies to decide if they want to make that investment and I doubt it would take $250K to give it a shot if the rules were reconsidered.

Brushed already has a powerful advantage for beginners… Cost. While in the long run brushless is cheaper for the serious racers, it is a lot more expensive to start with and compatibility is not universal. That contradicts the whole purpose of an affordable stock class and not everyone can afford multiple systems.

A year ago I called the motor companies and proposed changing the 27T motor rules to get us a motor that lasted longer, ran cooler, etc. I met with universal resistance from all but one company. They all said why mess with themost popular class in the US? I gave up.

I posted a thread dedicated to the manufacturers with a vested interest to discuss how to deal with this. Without cooperation there are no choices, no racing and no chance little Joey can ever get started with his small pile of lawnmower money. Good business is leaving the door open for everyone and not making rash decisions without considering all the factors involved.

Well said. I hope this happen in the future. In the past cooperation is in short supply...lol!

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Old 09-11-2006, 12:20 AM   #202
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BY 50 runs you have cut the com and replaced brushes many times. Definitely easier.

If all we have to do is make our Bl stock 13turns... definitely faster than stock brushed. There lies the challenge to make BL motors equal without stiffling choices in technology.

BL sales growth hands down, but until they figure out how to mix them at the upper levels we are going to support our loyal racers with brushed technology. We think it will take some time to work out.

At most club levels you do not need to cut and brush every run to be competitive. Checkpoint claims 15 or 20 runs between cuts and I have seen it. Personally I do not even take my motors out of the car during the day unless it is a major event. Its not what holds me back from winning.. just lack of ability.

Adrian.. the mod rules are in place and yet already outlaw the new versions of motors that exist. I am told there is no plan to allow sintered magnets and no proposal submitted to consider.. There are no legal brushless mod motors that can consistently finish a race. We have already proven that bonded magnets are not going to work with these power levels and it is bad business to build a motor that is going to be returned just to satisfy roar rules. Novak already moved on and Trinity started their as did we.

Also you are missing my point. Under the current rules our 13turn will not equal others and I refuse to be forced into a motor design that I am not fond of for many technical reasons.

Not to seem arogant but I really do not have time to watch all the great discussions on this forum. Some have too much to wade thru and I intend to concentrate on the new thread I started.
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Old 09-11-2006, 03:44 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgmeat
Dude what are you smokin' , stock motor racing is the most expensive part of onroad, i.e. brushes, motor lathe, aligmment tool, dyno's etc.etc.etc.
I only smoke indirectly. Damn those cigarette users who pollute my air.
As long as the brushes make contact with the armature even the most worn brushed motor still runs. Perfect for people who are beginning in this hobby and have no knowledge of maintenance. To keep brushed motor at full power you can use all those tools you mention. Except for the alignment tool, it's just a gimmick, the brushes themselves are the only alignment tool you need.

Brushless have limited revs. The motor needs higher frequency ESC to turn faster. To increase revs on brushed motor you just time it more, and decrease it's life. Some say that's racing, I say that's sabotage.
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Old 09-11-2006, 09:47 PM   #204
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There are many good and valid points on both sides of the fence...

The way to reach agreement is to focus on the things that everyone agrees on.

for example:

we want to grow this sport/hobby.
we want to have fun doing it.
we want the noobs to stay.
we want it to cost less.

"If you try and please everyone, you end up pleasing no-one"

here is an idea for people to think about. (and shoot down if necessary)

some sort of handicap system like golf, as your skill improves so does your handicap, so that a mod could race against a stock, and if the stock guy has a great race and makes no errors, but still comes in a lap behind the mod, he still actually wins, based on handicap


just for the record I like the idea of brushless, but it cant be everything to everyone and never will.

Personally, I have decided to stick with what I have at the moment. I love the class I race in. and I think I have the best of both worlds...

I have never cut a com, never aligned hoods, never had the expense of brushes or springs, and my motors last and last and last, (allmost like a brushless). There is also no tweaking, fancy tools or hours of maintenance and rebuilding, and the only tool I need is a screwdriver. It is race legal as long as it has not been tampered with, and very easy to tell if a motor has been modded.

my motors are cheap as chips and are available just about everywhere
my driveline doesnt wear out and I have never broken any parts like suspension arms etc, even in the worst crashes.

In fact the motor is the cheapest thing in my car, so I get to spend the money I save on motors on other bits.

I dont need a special ESC and my 3800 batteries could last at race speed for over 10min (like a lipo would),

My tires last for ages too, I only use 2 sets a year, one for summer and one for winter. I race 6 times a month. At the end of summer the summer tires go in the bin, and I put the winter set on.

All I do is clean the motor with motor spray and go again.

Racing is competitive, and people spend their time on car setup (or socialising), not on motor maintenance. The new guys are only one or two laps off the pace compared to the fast guys.

If you've never tried it, maybe you should. not quite as fast, but 95% of the fun, with very low ongoing cost (compared to stock), and very low initial cost (compared to brushless). Try a 540j / silver can motor. Alot of people disregard 540s as only for newbies, but in Australia, there is a real following, it is the largest class at my main club, frequently with a full A and B.

As you can see, this is my version of "brushless/lipo" I get all the benfits you guys want, without the cost, and its legal, (albeit 2 sec/lap slower). Just my non-confrontational 2-cents worth, you can disagree if you like...

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Old 09-14-2006, 10:06 PM   #205
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Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to kill the conversation...

I just wanted to point out that for the most part we all want the same end result, its how we propose to achieve the end result that differs.

You cant stop technology, we need to reach agreement on how to accommodate new technology, (be it lipo, brushless or the next thing to come along) alongside the existing technology.

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Old 09-15-2006, 10:27 AM   #206
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You did not kill it, it was already dead.

You are going to have people for and against it. This thread was getting to the point of un called for postings of name calling and lies (on both sides)...

At the end of the day, everyone has a brain, Capacity of one's brain well that is another point , but you should determine what is best for you based on the facts... Not the BS some people gave. Based on the facts people will decide what is right for them. As far as ROAR legal or not... That one is simple, it does not matter for club racing, clubs can choose to have amendments to the rules. In fact ROAR encourages this and reporting the results back to them.
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Old 09-15-2006, 04:11 PM   #207
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ya i agree. for me, lipos and highturn brushless sounds pretty darn good, well except for the price because i dont do any club racing, so i don't have to worry about the roar rules and whatnot. while others across the world club race and like the way the rules are now and don't feel that there needs to be any major changes. once i get myself some money, ill probably get a brushless lipo setup since all i do is bash, and hopefully by then the prices will lower a tad.
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Old 09-15-2006, 04:49 PM   #208
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Default officially dead

ok...i'll officially kill this thread...

BL is here to stay...and so is brushed.....so there..
let's get those cars ready for the tracks....not the motors..

officially cyber dead....
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