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Old 09-09-2006, 07:04 PM   #181
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Man, I just have to do it. Greg Hill was a good friend of mine, and I was Stu's team mate. And we all beat Loncarovich.....lol. And now I race RC cars.
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Old 09-09-2006, 07:35 PM   #182
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This is a very interesting thread, so, without flaming or tossing in a grenade, here's my 2cents...

Brushless started as an alternative to brushed. Novak (I think) had the first systems, and they sold them for some time without them being 'legal'. So many people picked up on it that they were made legal. Which begs a few questions...

Why has no one come up with a 5 or 7-pole brushed using rare-earth magents? Having used a 3-pole rare-earth motor, they are awesome, and in the same maintenance bracket as brushless. What's stopping Ernie, or anyone else doing this? Why are they simply walking down the (brushless) road someone else carved out for them?

Why have the two types of motor had their hands tied on specification? Brushed now can't run rare-earth magnets, and brushless can't run sintered rotors. If we are searching for an alternative to the current motor that does all the things people are asking for, why are we walking down two tightly defined roads, and not allowing people to roam free and find answers?

Is it the case that to get more participation, we need to get something done about motors? This thread says yes. Why are we simply considering two possible answers that are shaping up as a battle of the micrometer inside some arbitrary motor rules drawn up from existing products?

I have little doubt the future we seek is out there, but how is forcing good money and great brains down a prescribed route, with all the attendant problems so well articulated here, a professional way to find a solution?

Why can't we lobby ROAR, IFMAR, etc. to allow a truly open class - anything inside the current 53mm x 35mm 05 envelope with 1" mounting centres - that would throw up far more possibilities to secure our future? Wouldn't that allow Ernie and his band of independent motor builders to fund a brushed alternative, and Novak et al to do the same for brushless? (Note, I'm not saying them exclusively, just mentioning people I know, and who have been mentioned here.)

This thread just feels to me like two archers discussing the merits of three and four-bladed flights on the accuracy of an arrow, while the outside world is having lunch with Mr. Gatling, to see what his new gun can do. My point is, when brushless takes over, there will be another technology along to topple it from its perch - and we'll all invest in that. Wouldn't knowing that (say) 27T and 19T were 'safe' for a while increase participation, especially from newcomers with their RTRs? - allowing the Mod guys to test the new stuff, and keep the perceived lo-cost classes for the newcomers?

If we want to get some stability (which always increases participation), I think it is time to invite the Mr. Gatlings to lunch with a more open-rule policy.
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Old 09-09-2006, 07:35 PM   #183
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For 2007 Mod can run Brushless and Brushed toghter as before.

For 2007 we do not have enough experiece with the 13.5 and 5800(8.5) to know if they can/should run in stock or 19T at a national level.

If you race at a ROAR club track your club race is considered Level 1 event. At Level 1 races the race director (whoever is putting on the race) can decide on his own to allow mixed BL and BR classes or to create separate classes if he has enogh guy running the diffrent motors. This way everyone can race what they want at club races. For higher level events (Regionals, State Races, etc...) the race director can contact thier regional Director or ROAR directly and ask for a rule deviation to allow their racers to run what they want to run

By this time in 2007 we will know a lot more. Racers will have polarized and gotten behind what they want to run and we will be in a good position to decide if we should create rules for mixed classes or separate classes.

Hasty rules or rules made without enough info are bad for the hobby and bad for racing. I believe BL is the future but we need to give it time to develop naturally.
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Old 09-09-2006, 08:02 PM   #184
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I havent read the hole tread, but I just want to say one thing.
We cant stop progress.
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Old 09-09-2006, 08:50 PM   #185
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This is a very interesting thread, so, without flaming or tossing in a grenade, here's my 2cents...

Please do not take this as flaming. Some of my answers are short but I do not maen for them to be rude or condescending in any way.

Brushless started as an alternative to brushed. Novak (I think) had the first systems, and they sold them for some time without them being 'legal'. So many people picked up on it that they were made legal. Which begs a few questions...

Why has no one come up with a 5 or 7-pole brushed using rare-earth magnets?

These require huge investments in tooling and are not currently allow by sanctioning bodies. We would need a huge reworking of rules by the sanctioning bodies and a huge investment of from the manufacturers. Neither one of these parties want to do this.

Having used a 3-pole rare-earth motor, they are awesome...

Interesting...I have spoken with all the motor manufacturers and they all say 3-pole rare-earth motors are useless. The draw too many amps, have lots of torque and turn very little rpm compared to the same wind with ferrite mags. You could not fit the gears necessary to run them in most modern cars. To make rare earth brushed motors work on par with what we are running would require lots of time and money.

...and in the same maintenance bracket as brushless.

Not a chance. Anyone knows that a fresh cut comm will generate more power. The fast guys will still skim it every run. Brushes make contact, contact = friction and results in lower efficiency. Not to mention that all of that is called maintenance and that is something we would all like to do less of.

What's stopping Ernie, or anyone else doing this? Why are they simply walking down the (brushless) road someone else carved out for them?

Because Ernie and the rest of the motor manufacturers are smart business people and are looking to the future...its brushless.

Why have the two types of motor had their hands tied on specification?

To reduce racing costs and keep motor development in check...and it has worked well over the years.

Brushed now can't run rare-earth magnets, and brushless can't run sintered rotors. If we are searching for an alternative to the current motor that does all the things people are asking for,

Brushless will almost certainly be allowed to use rare earth mags next year by all internationals sanctioning bodies. No one cares about allowing brushed motor to have rare earths because they know it would require a huge investment in R&D and capital. They would rather spend the money on their brushless programs.

...why are we walking down two tightly defined roads, and not allowing people to roam free and find answers?

This is a case where you donít really understand what you are asking for. No one really wants this level of freedom in development. If all the motor companies did their own thing it would be a mess. We would have 4 totally different motors with different interfaces, different weights different magnets, different power outputs, etc... One would be the best and all the other companies would lose their shirts and have to start over copying their competitors design. Who would pay for all this...consumers.

Even before there were any rules for BL motors the manufacturers got together and agreed on a few ground rules so they could go make motors that were all compatible


Is it the case that to get more participation, we need to get something done about motors? This thread says yes. Why are we simply considering two possible answers that are shaping up as a battle of the micrometer inside some arbitrary motor rules drawn up from existing products?

See the above comments

I have little doubt the future we seek is out there, but how is forcing good money and great brains down a prescribed route, with all the attendant problems so well articulated here, a professional way to find a solution?

Yes

Why can't we lobby ROAR, IFMAR, etc. to allow a truly open class - anything inside the current 53mm x 35mm 05 envelope with 1" mounting centers - that would throw up far more possibilities to secure our future?

Because no one want to do this and if it were to happen 99% of you would not be able to drive it.

Wouldn't that allow Ernie and his band of independent motor builders to fund a brushed alternative, and Novak et al to do the same for brushless? (Note, I'm not saying them exclusively, just mentioning people I know, and who have been mentioned here.)

No one you mentioned is interested in doing that.

This thread just feels to me like two archers discussing the merits of three and four-bladed flights on the accuracy of an arrow, while the outside world is having lunch with Mr. Gatling, to see what his new gun can do. My point is, when brushless takes over, there will be another technology along to topple it from its perch - and we'll all invest in that. Wouldn't knowing that (say) 27T and 19T were 'safe' for a while increase participation, especially from newcomers with their RTRs? - allowing the Mod guys to test the new stuff, and keep the perceived lo-cost classes for the newcomers?

If we want to get some stability (which always increases participation), I think it is time to invite the Mr. Gatlings to lunch with a more open-rule policy.
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Old 09-09-2006, 09:17 PM   #186
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I am not sure who you are talking to Adrian, but if the motor rules were opened up.....brushed would get further development. You rarely go to any of the national races......and last I checked, none of the major motor companies are in florida.....so how are you communicating with these guys, email? I talk to most of them often, so they are either lying to me, lying to you.....or you simply have never talked to them.

Allow bigger arms and neo mags would be useable. To just slap a neo mag in a can right now does nothing but overpower the current arms. A 3 segment larger diameter arm motor with Neo Mags would be an extremely powerful motor and would also be more efficient with less failures.

I can post a comment from Bob Novak saying he would develop a 5 or 7 segment brushless if the rules allowed....and the only reason he didn't orginally was because he was trying to stay close to the ancient ROAR rules....

You have long shown a biased towards brushless.....

And please don't lump ALL of us together....there are many many posts from people, including just Joe Blow average racers who have stated NUMEROUS times they ENJOY working on their motors and don't mind it. So please don't say we all want something, when its clearly not the case. I would like to do less chassis tuning and maintenance.....you don't see me claiming everyone else does or worse yet we should attempt to eliminate it.

I am a smart business guy (we can compare tax returns if ya like).....and I am telling you, if the rules were opened up to allow further development in the brushed area, I would do it.....as would some of the others. I had a motor in development, that was actually fairly close to prototype.....then ROAR came out with their sudden brushless rules with no notice....so I shelved it under the promise from Rick Wilson, ROAR President, that the brushed rules would be opened up for 2006.......well, year is almost over, he is gone......and no progress has been made, yet we are already talking about changing the rules for brushless so their motors don't blow up. Switching to bigger arms and smaller magnets won't be that expensive....it will be cheaper than the massive set of evolution left still in brushless motors.....

And the only brushless companies that got together for the rules was Novak and LRP/Reedy......every other brushless system out there was basically outlawed with the rules that were put in place.....all that was done there was an attempt at setting up a mini-monopoly. I mean really, who's idea was it to not allow Delta winding?? You know.....the way all the hackers, etc are wound....thus making them ALL illegal.

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Old 09-09-2006, 10:45 PM   #187
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[QUOTE=EddieO]I am not sure who you are talking to Adrian, but if the motor rules were opened up.....brushed would get further development. You rarely go to any of the national races......and last I checked, none of the major motor companies are in florida.....so how are you communicating with these guys, email? I talk to most of them often, so they are either lying to me, lying to you.....or you simply have never talked to them.

I prefer a thing called the phone and sometimes email As far as who I am talking to...its the boss of the guy you are talking to at Nationals

Allow bigger arms and neo mags would be useable. To just slap a neo mag in a can right now does nothing but overpower the current arms. A 3 segment larger diameter arm motor with Neo mags would be an extremely powerful motor and would also be more efficient with less failures.

The motor you are talking about has been made by Astro-Flite for the last 25 years for R/C planes. They can't give them away today as the R/C plane market has moved to Brushless because it is superior in every way...power, efficiency, maintenance

I can post a comment from Bob Novak saying he would develop a 5 or 7 segment brushless if the rules allowed....and the only reason he didn't originally was because he was trying to stay close to the ancient ROAR rules....

Yup

You have long shown a biased towards brushless.....

So I was racing a couple of months ago. I was running 19T 1/12th and 19T sedan at a club race with ~40 guys. We are running a hurry up program to beat the rain. I am thrashing pulling and replacing motors, cutting comms, breaking in motors, charging batts, etc. Across from me is PW running mod with his LRP BL system helping a kid with his car and chatting. To my right is Jason from BMI running a Novak 5800 (we run a mixed 19T/5800 class) shaking his head and laughing at me.

I was talking to EA a few days ago about an oval race he was at. Half the field was running Novak 4300 and he said it was the weirdest race he has been to in a while. Guys actually got up from their pit tables and walked around and were talking, having a good time.

Am I biased towards brushless...yup...so are a lot of other people.


And please don't lump ALL of us together....there are many many posts from people, including just Joe Blow average racers who have stated NUMEROUS times they ENJOY working on their motors and don't mind it. So please don't say we all want something, when its clearly not the case. I would like to do less chassis tuning and maintenance.....you don't see me claiming everyone else does or worse yet we should attempt to eliminate it.

Thatís fair enough, you got me there. So...lets just see what a majority of electric racers will be running this time next year. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure I already know.

I am a smart business guy (we can compare tax returns if ya like).....

No doubt about that. Personal finance wise you are Bill Gates and I am the guy taking you burger order at Wendy's...lol!


and I am telling you, if the rules were opened up to allow further development in the brushed area, I would do it.....as would some of the others. I had a motor in development, that was actually fairly close to prototype.....then ROAR came out with their sudden brushless rules with no notice....so I shelved it under the promise from Rick Wilson, ROAR President, that the brushed rules would be opened up for 2006.......well, year is almost over, he is gone......and no progress has been made, yet we are already talking about changing the rules for brushless so their motors don't blow up. Switching to bigger arms and smaller magnets won't be that expensive....it will be cheaper than the massive set of evolution left still in brushless motors.....

Who exactly wants to develop a new brushed motor? Reedy...nope, Orionís...maybe but I don't think they would, Trinity... maybe but I think they all see the writing on the wall. You, more than anyone, understand investments and risk. Brushed motor development is not a safe bet.

And the only brushless companies that got together for the rules was Novak and LRP/Reedy......every other brushless system out there was basically outlawed with the rules that were put in place.....all that was done there was an attempt at setting up a mini-monopoly.

Maybe...It would not be the first time this was done Hacker Lehner and Faigao were kind of blindsided. That said...did they lobby ROAR, IFMAR, EFRA the BRCA and JRMCA to have the rules opened up...nope.

I mean really, who's idea was it to not allow Delta winding?? You know.....the way all the hackers, etc are wound....thus making them ALL illegal.

I am not so sure Hackers are Delta ...At least not all of them. I need a motor for my new Heli so I'll talk to Jason at Hacker in Tempe tomorrow.

Oh yeah...when I say talk to him I mean I will be using a telephone...just wanted to be clear about that
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Old 09-09-2006, 10:58 PM   #188
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Adrian, it seems to me like the off road crowd has gravitated towards the newer "low maintainence" technologies such as brushless and now LiPo's. I'm thinking it has something to do with the fact that regardless of how much power you have strapped in there, you can only get so much power to the ground. With on-road these days it's all so pressure filled, even at a club level, the grip levels of the cars, tires, and track surfaces, you can throw just about any stupid low-turn motor in a sedan and you won't overpower things. It just seems like such a different mindset from format of racing to another. It was a big culture shock coming from carpet sedan to electric off road. It just seems so much more laid back, fun, a lot more joking around and such. Just an observation I guess.
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Old 09-10-2006, 12:44 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Kemp
whoa!!!!
this guy just referenced classic bmx names...he wins post of the year award!Now if somebody mixes in a Stompin' Stu vs. Greg Hill debate I'll be logged on forever.
Agreed...great conversation with much civilty
Now, back to the 200 late models out my window.

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I forgot about Pistol "the cat that almost looks spanish" loncarvich<---spelling. How can I forget about Martin Apariljo? I was the GT fanatic. And Mike Miranda and the guy who has a jump named after him...LEARY! Anyways, BMX was/is alot like RC. Battle of the bikes. Haro, Hutch, CW, GT, Red-Line, Diamondback, Huffy, Kuwahara, PK-Ripper. Who has chro-moly, who's has tri-moly, who has the better frame, which is lighter...which is better for ramps, better for ground....remember this gents??? This has plagued us yet AGAIN. This time, let's meet it head on(apply directly to the forehead). Brushless is the next level for electric. Peep the new Xtreme RC mag..they make it seem like one "graduates" to nitro, but they talk mainly about brushed and hint toward lipo. They KNOW that brushless is the tool that will even the playing field.
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Old 09-10-2006, 11:55 AM   #190
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Adrian, just to confirm, the motor I ran was a 380-size motor with a standard armature of the current design, and thin rare-earth magnets. It wasn't a motor of the current design which would behave as you describe if we simply replaced the current magnets with rare-earth.

The motor was lighter, faster and more powerful than the equvalent brushed motor, and ran for longer. I think it is a great shame that we can't get rules opened up to satisfy the thousands of drivers who enjoy wrenching on motors, and to make the beginner's transition to racing much cheaper and easier. If you haven't tried one, please don't dismiss it out of hand.

The origin of the design is a Trinity Drag motor, but I can't see it on their site any more. It's nice to see that some brushed motor manufacturers would develop the technology if allowed, and it is interesting that EddieO also feels that the current rules lock out better brushless designs.

I appreciate your response, but I still ask why we have to force development down a single road when there are other avenues out there.
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Old 09-10-2006, 11:57 AM   #191
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Ok, I'm going to eat my words here and we are all allowed to do so from time to time. I'm only doing this because BMX was brought up and I was a sponsored BMX racer in the early 80's.

Did I have an advantage back then on a bicycle that in 1982 ( I had 3 of them) that cost $1200 and didn't come out of my pocket? Maybe, maybe not.... Then again, I'd ride a good 10-20 miles a day and had a practice track setup... So maybe I could have done the same with an off the floor Mongoose...

I left BMX to go to MX and didn't have the same backing so it wasn't financially possible to compete with the sponsored guys....

20 years later my knee's are still killing me.... hahahaha....




Ok... Onto the Brushless.....

We need to see what happens this year with clubs allowing 13.5 turn motors to run with stock. I do agree that the sanctioning bodies need to watch the clubs to see if a brushless stock is viable.

Who knows, maybe brushless threatening brushed they'll loosen the brushed rules enough to build a better brushed motor....

bxpitbull, my life is more hectic now than it has ever been....
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Old 09-10-2006, 02:15 PM   #192
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I just wanted to make an observation regarding developing 'Illegal' motors.

Isn't the largest percentage of people that buy an RC car just bashing and not racing? I thought I read that somewhere, that only about 10% of people who buy one race it. (feel free to correct me on this if I'm wrong)

So why not develop for the masses? The larger market?

RC planes have no regulations on brushless. Everybody is coming out with thier best new wind, lighter wieght blah blah blah.
Guys are rewinding motors out of a CDRom to get a great, dirt cheap brushless motor.

The consumer wins. Lots of choices, lots of great product. It all drives innovation and progress, which we all benefit from.
The consumers should dictate what we want from companies, not ROAR.
If a company only develops ROAR legal product, it's their fault for only marketing to a smaller group of people, and in my mind, they will and should fall behind companies with a larger perspective.

Why is it that they guys who make motors for cars won't develop motors outside of ROAR specs?

I bought a mambamax, knowing it wasn't legal. don't care. won't race it at a sanctioned event. big deal.

I'll put in a legal Novak for the race. I get what i want, crazy speed, and CastleCreations gets another happy customer. (so does Novak)

Consumers have the power, support who you want, buy what you want, and the manufacturers will give us what we want or wallow in a stagnant ROAR pond.
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Old 09-10-2006, 06:50 PM   #193
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It the manufacturers that proposed the brushless rules not ROAR.

The back yard bashers do not have the performance requirements of racers. Motor manufacturers develop race motor s and detune them for bashers. Bashers can buy race motors it they want to go really fast.

This is the way it has always been. Why? It makes economic sense for the manufacturers. It can cost $250,000 to design a new motor (new can, magnets , laminations, endbell mold, brushhoods, heatsinks,etc...). They are better off spending this once for the most demanding group of usesrs (racers).
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Old 09-10-2006, 08:04 PM   #194
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I don't understand the dilemma here... Most of the current brushless speedo's can run both brushed and brushless. If there are enough BL stockers,run Bl stock, If not, run the brushed motors. I can't wait for the "stock " brushless, I love working on motors,but I would prefer to not HAVE to worry about the comm. Another thing to consider:if a standardized BL stock motor( however that is done) rule is laid out,why couldn't it have it's own class? Eventually the brushed would fade out. It seems to me that we're getting a bit long winded about an easily solvable dilemma. Once there is a standardized "stock"BL class(doesn't even have to perform that similar to a brushed stock,don't they run 17t "stock" overseas?)) and a mod BL class, we'll all eventually migrate at our own pace. No pressure, no hurt feelings.--Al
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Old 09-10-2006, 08:24 PM   #195
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I was at that oval race with EA and I ran a brushed motor class and was still able to get up and walk around and talk to people,that had nothing to do with the Brushless guys,I also want to put my vote in for "Enjoying working on my brushed motors" brushless may be great, but I don't think it's going to take over completly.
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