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Old 09-08-2006, 03:21 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by TAMIYAMANUK
so after all it seems to be a good thread after all.

but last week when i was watching the A finals we had a mixed final with brushless and brushed in one heat to see who could win it and guess who won by 2 tenths of a second


1st-brushless

2nd- brushed

3rd-brushed

4th-brushless

5th-brushed
Man I like to see this... I'm not against brush or brushless, I just think for the newbie, brushless is much better (I still consider myself as newbie (1 year and 1 month in the sport), but making my way to novice.... ;-) )
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Old 09-08-2006, 03:45 PM   #152
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am not for or against none of it just looking forward for the furture and whats going to be on offer to us
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Old 09-08-2006, 03:48 PM   #153
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Brushed motors will not go away if they are allowed to advance the technology. Everyone agrees that if we truly want people to get involved and stay involved it has to be easier. Like it our not brushless and lipo certainly fit that description. I truly hope brushed survives and I am counting on it since we are spending a tremendous amount of time and money to develop our new brushed controllers. Don’t make rules to stop progress… strive forward and fight head on! Anyone ever read Atlas Shrugged?

Brushless is not hands down better in all applications.. but we cannot deny that currently the advantages of runtime and maintenance for the other 90% of the market that pay the bills and do not race exist. So what are you going to do about it to survive?

We do need to figure out some “restrictor plate” rules to have fair classes of racing below mod with brushless. A tough challenge since RPM and turns will not do it unless you include gearing because some motors can simply be geared a lot higher than others. Even then some will have more torque and get there faster. In brushed the motor simply burns up if you put too much power thru it. In brushless 13 turns does not provide the same current limits simply because it is not as much of a heating element. Tough issue to solve.

Sponsored drivers do tend to push their equipment to destruction with tall gearing and high amp charging at major events… So I guess you can buy some advantage, but you also have that choice if you really have the need to measure yourself against the best. The top levels of all forms of racing are proving grounds and advertising and should have little to do with budget club racing. If most of us could go to a major event and do well against people that have dedicated themselves to their craft… then it is too easy and I personally would be bored quickly.

Mod should be bring all you got. If you can dump a 4200 in 5 minutes and keep it on the wheels then it just forces us, and the drivers, to keep pushing the envelope. At club levels maybe mod is too fast to handle, but I will let you in on a little secret… that trigger thing on the radio is a throttle not a switch. If you can’t handle it, don’t squeeze it or bring lots of parts.

4 cell creates a host of problems that most do not comprehend. P(power)=I(amps)V(volts) and if you reduce V and work your way back to the same P, which we will, then we have a huge I… which reduces durability of batteries and motors and will increase the cost of controllers. Truth be known a higher voltage would make everything easier and last longer. 4 cell may be the death of brushed motors due to increased comm and brush issues. For battery matchers it seems pretty obvious that sales would be reduced by 1/3 regardless of their fear of lipo.. it is a double edged sword.

Interesting times lie ahead and it should be exciting. In the end lets just hope it all helps grow club racing without us all ending up running a stock Tyco to maintain a fair and enjoyable environment. Most could really care less about the politics, they just want to race and have fun.

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Old 09-08-2006, 03:56 PM   #154
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As a lawyer myself, it seems to be that "built to be legal for all ROAR racing" is "legalspeak gobblegook". (aka deceptive)

They will be legal BUT ONLY IF the rules are changed to what Trinity wants/hopes/expects.

As of now, they are not ROAR legal, correct?
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Old 09-08-2006, 04:02 PM   #155
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Interesting...

So it seems that answer is rather simple... Just hard to do..

As stated before by others...

Rating classes on ablitity not motor turns....

So ROAR could have the following Classes:
- Novice (Club) (you currently know this as stock, but battery limitations, 3300 or less) 4 wins in a season, or x numbers of laps in a main and you must move up.... laps are demterined by a good Intermindate driver)
- Intermidate (Club / Regional) (you currently know this as stock 27T)
- Pro (Regional / National) (You currently know this as 19T)
- Expert (Regional / National) (You currently know this as mod)

But only top two or three would run at a club level or regional level, and at the nationals, only the bottom two or three...

I'm sure there are issues with this, but one thing week know for sure, we must start at some point and adjust, after all Rome was not built in a day.
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Old 09-08-2006, 04:05 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minidriver
As a lawyer myself, it seems to be that "built to be legal for all ROAR racing" is "legalspeak gobblegook". (aka deceptive)

They will be legal BUT ONLY IF the rules are changed to what Trinity wants/hopes/expects.

As of now, they are not ROAR legal, correct?
Excellent just the kind of person we are looking for... really...
I agree with your point, but they make this statement "Meets all ROAR Specs" how would you read that... We have a regional tomorrow and this could be very interesting, in mod class....
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Old 09-08-2006, 04:05 PM   #157
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I for one hope stock brushed motors remain. Part of the fun of rc racing is tinkering with your car in all aspects, motor, handling, etc. Ya race for 5 minutes for 3 qualifiers, a main. Ya have fun working on your car for the balance of your hours at a race. Trying to tune a motor is part of the fun.

A bit off topic, but

I saw an ad for a Trinity stock motor with bearings instead of bushings. I've always thought it was a bit weird that we haven't pitched the bushings. The cost difference has got to be minimal in the huge quanities we use stock motors, right?? Is ROAR considering finally pitching the bushing requirement for stock motors?
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Old 09-08-2006, 05:16 PM   #158
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Sorting strictly by ability would be a deterant to many and sandbagging would be rampant.. IE golf.. Most clubs do run a novice or sportsman class. Just because a guy sucks does not mean he should not be able to run mod. The extreme speeds and excitement is what brings people in (basher). After they get over the initial “how fast can I go” (thrasher) they typically settle down and figure out that slower setups turn faster laps, break less parts and actually allow them to finish a race (hobbiest). Is it really that important to win? Is that what helps a thrasher become a hobbiest and stick around long term? We could just include your first trophy in the RTR box.

At the top levels the current system is pretty solid. Everything except mod is handout motors. That is obviously not practical at local levels or fair to the smaller motor companies. If a local racer has a clear advantage over everyone, then figure out what he is running, or doing, and join him…. That’s called healthy competition between manufacturers and forces everyone to keep moving forward.

This is a hobby meaning it requires knowledge and attention to detail to be successful at any level. Many just drive until their car is so bad it is almost undriveable. Their expectations should be inline with their efforts. Serious problem with society today.. quick and easy.. instant gratification… very little effort or commitment.

I do not mean to be sarcastic. We really are looking for the answer and want people to stick around. Unfortunately for some perhaps a video game would be a better choice.

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Old 09-08-2006, 05:48 PM   #159
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Default WOOHH....

WOOOHHH..
if someone is new or just a novice or maybe even an okay driver, he/she should be allowed to race in a mod race......ok...i'll finish my drink first...
ok done...
by all rights I would say yes sure....BUT (big caps)
hmmm...who pays for the parts of the other mod drivers who can handle the car at those speeds...the rookie/novice mod driver...
hmmm...I would never race mod with a bunch of mod regulars...no way..for one i would break parts...yes of course it's part of racing mod....but how about guy who just got wrecked because that novice rammed right into him...
hmmmm.....that would make that mod driver not want to race at that track or just not race that class.

let's face it guys...look five years down the road...what's going to be on shelves.....selling to the common rc racer....the 50 buck (hopefully) brushless motor or the 50 buck brushed motor...
what's the current price of a GTX or Q3 or G11...around 150 to 160
what's the current price of a GTB or sphere comp...around 170 to 180...
with that being said in due time I'm sure the manufacturers will be either lowering the price or making the speedos with less bell and whistles as they currently do, i.e; GTS, or Q1 or similar.

Someone please answer this for me. What happened when the hobby went from sealed can motors to the current style brushed motors...Was there this much controversy or resistance? Is the brushless resistance coming from the guys who made that push for the product in past era?
I wasn't in RC then, but I'm rather curious as to what the aspects were back then.

And i'm one that loves to race...but i just hate messing with motors...not my thing..rather work on the car..or setup..or just practice.

Last edited by olhipster1; 09-08-2006 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 09-08-2006, 06:15 PM   #160
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A question for all those whos clubs are heavily using brushless,

How has the NOVAK "STOCK" Brushless been recieved?
And is there anyone who can comment on wether it will be allowed sanctioned to be legal for large events?

Also how mwny people think that we will eventually see both MOD Brushed and Brushless classes?

My 2c.
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Old 09-08-2006, 06:38 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluey_74
And is there anyone who can comment on wether it will be allowed sanctioned to be legal for large events?
I will tell you after the race...

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125039

It was time to take a walk on the other side... It has been received well...
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Old 09-08-2006, 06:41 PM   #162
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minidriver - Sorry was not to clear...

They make this statement "Meets all ROAR Specs" how would you read this??

I was asking for you professional view on this wording....
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Old 09-08-2006, 06:57 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olhipster1
WOOOHHH..
if someone is new or just a novice or maybe even an okay driver, he/she should be allowed to race in a mod race......ok...i'll finish my drink first...
Allowed by who? There are no requirements for a ROAR national race.. Anyone can buy a low end rtr and a mod motor and sign up. Until the resort you may end with a few national champs. For some this may be the kind of attraction they need to make the attendance less than pathetic at national events. You might race with Hodgimotto, Toso or Easton... at least for a round or 2. Is it a good idea or fair to the pros.. probably not.. but it is a fact and a price the pros may have to pay to have healthy Roar Nationals. Have 3 drinks if you need them.

I do not make the rules or determine the consumers expectations. Brushless is going to make this worse because about all we sell is the fastest motors to newbs and they want to race them. Is it better to put them with other novice drivers running stock motors or with the mod guys. Is it a good idea for clubs that are starving for members and scrambling to even stay active to turn them away? Face it, people get interested because of the impressive speeds, not the novice stock class. We may have to endure some thrashing if we want to have a B or C main at most clubs. Look on the bright side, you will have a chance to practice driving in traffic and passing

The thread was "what happens when brushless takes over" and if we sort by ability this is an issue that will be faced. Sort by speed whether or not they can handle it.

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Old 09-08-2006, 07:27 PM   #164
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Default I've had my drink

I've had my drinks.
hmm...how to respond to that.
let's see are tracks lacking in attendance or memberships...that would be a yes!!...once more I agree with you.....
but if tracks start saying ...by the way that brushless system you just bought 3 weeks ago....well you can't use it during racing unless you run mod....how many people do you think will race mod...after that first try.
hmmm
and after how many of them will return?
and after that how many of them will dish out more money on brushed motors to make everyone but themselves happy?

Funny thing is when guys say..switching to brushless is to pricey...add it up..speedo how much...brushed motor how much?
then between rounds they pull out the lathe, how much did that cost?
ohh. time to switch the brushes. how much does that cost?
ohh..darn i cut that comm all wrong, or this is no good anymore...how much for the replacement?

I'm curious about some other things....why is the brushless scene being so resisted...why didn't this happen to other electronics...servos..are they different in speed and mechanics? YES....transmitters....are they different in speed signals and electronics...YES....or something as simple as bearings...are ceramics better than reg...YES...no one seems to say No you can't use that....
Why? because it sells...and all tracks need to make money..it's what they are there for....and I try my best to support that.

Yes I am all for brushless. And in no way say don't run your brushed motors, by all means do...it's a racers choice. Not a manufacturer's....manufacturers are there to fill the demand....not to demand.

After all who is spending their money at the track?
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Old 09-08-2006, 08:11 PM   #165
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Ok one more time and then I better gracefully step out.

Things are getting crossed here. We are all for brushless and brushed living in harmony and trying to figure out how. We are about to release our 1/10 brushless system and our new 1/10 brushed speedo. We have already released our 1/18 brushless system, the Mini Rage, which won the mini nationals, and will soon release our 1/18 brushed speedo. We have a vested interest. We are trying to help figure out where it fits in the racing scene so we do not fracture what little racing we have into 2 camps and make everything more difficult.

It is more fair to put a newb with a high kv brushless with the mod guys than to put them with the novice guys running stock motors. At least the mod guys are skilled enough to go under a poor driver without even changing their line. The stock novice guys would be bowling pins for the faster car on crazy lines. Hopefully after they break out every race they will buy something more resonable and find their place.

How about a true thrasher class... Until you can finish heats without breaking you are a thrasher. WWF smackdown baby.. thats who we are attracting with this crazy stuff. If we want to grow we are going have to deal with it somehow. Wait till we make 1/8 buggies electric and convert the nitro guys. Then we are going to have some real issues to deal with. Been to RCX lately. The crowd literally boos if the manufacturers do not destroy things in the cage.

If we ever meet I will buy you a drink and maybe we can figure it out togther.

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