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Old 09-08-2006, 11:55 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Smash

I think your examples are extreme. lol

Some of us who support brushless just pointed out the obvious which is brushless is less maintenance and money which will open up time on chasis tuning and money for tires etc.
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Old 09-08-2006, 11:56 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by eforer
Am I the only one in the universe who likes stock the way it is? I bought lathe a long time ago, its fine. I have a cheap alignment bar which I honestly don't use that much, and I get more life than I could ever want out of a brushed stock motor. Furthermore, F brushes last for friggin' ever, they are relatively easy on the comm and fast. I cut motors in club racing once a day. Not a big deal.

Stock brushed feels good, the power band, the response to throttle input. Everytime I've driven one of the slower brushless meant to compete with stock/19t, (ie the 4300 etc), it feels lousy and I can't drive it comfortably or well. It's like the driving a brushed motor with your radio's throttle expo all screwed up and the profile on the esc messed up.

I'm sure the technology will be improved upon and eventually be terrrific, but as it stands now I can't see any serious stock racer wanting to switch over. Give it time, I'm sure the more sophisticated software will resolve these issues. Until then I'm perfectly happy status quo.
You're not alone. A couple of the guys in our club go to big races regularly, and don't want to use anything other than the stuff they compete with (understandably so.) They're happy to run in our 4300 class, since that's the only way we can keep up with them. I think they feel like better competition in the club will help them at larger races. They also generally have an advantage over guys that aren't as good as tuning/buying motors as them, and probably don't want that to go away.

With the exception of maybe a little bit too much roll, I find brushless to be a more enjoyable driving experience than brushed. The stronger rotor seems to make it even better, since the motor drags a bit more. I don't think there's any wait and see, the GTB and Sphere do a damn fine job. People are winning big races with them, too, so clearly they're not so flawed they can't win at any level. At this point, people that want to "wait" generally mean "I hope this dies and goes away." Sorry. :-(

Last edited by syndr0me; 09-08-2006 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 09-08-2006, 12:06 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
You're not alone. A couple of the guys in our club go to big races regularly, and don't want to use anything other than the stuff they compete with (understandably so.) They're happy to run in our 4300 class, since that's the only way we can keep up with them. I think they feel like better competition in the club will help them at larger races. They also generally have an advantage over guys that aren't as good as tuning/buying motors as them, and probably don't want that to go away.

With the exception of maybe a little bit too much roll, I find brushless to be a more enjoyable driving experience than brushed. The stronger rotor seems to make it even better, since the motor drags a bit more. I don't think there's any wait and see, the GTB and Sphere do a damn fine job. People are winning big races with them, too, so clearly they're not so flawed they can't win at any level. At this point, people that want to "wait" generally mean "I hope this dies and goes away." Sorry. :-(
No doubt the systems used in mod are fast and are now quite successful. That said, I can't nor do I want to race mod. I have a normal career, can only travel to a few big races etc. etc. I like stock and don't really see going beyond that anytime soon. I don't feel that there is anything the brushless world has to offer me that is comprable in any meaningful way to the experience of racing stock. Maybe I'm just a hack, but everytime I've tried one (granted in other people's cars) I've had a difficult time driving the car. Also, at least at the local tracks I race at (all in the north east), there is no resitance amongst club guys to racing with brushed motors. Is this sentiment unusual elsewhere?

Like I said, down the road, I'm sure there will be a low maitenence solution for the stock class be it brushless or something else.

One thing I will say is that I haven't tried the 4300 with the newest brushless esc's. Do they make a significant difference?
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Old 09-08-2006, 12:44 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforer
No doubt the systems used in mod are fast and are now quite successful. That said, I can't nor do I want to race mod. I have a normal career, can only travel to a few big races etc. etc. I like stock and don't really see going beyond that anytime soon. I don't feel that there is anything the brushless world has to offer me that is comprable in any meaningful way to the experience of racing stock. Maybe I'm just a hack, but everytime I've tried one (granted in other people's cars) I've had a difficult time driving the car. Also, at least at the local tracks I race at (all in the north east), there is no resitance amongst club guys to racing with brushed motors. Is this sentiment unusual elsewhere?

Like I said, down the road, I'm sure there will be a low maitenence solution for the stock class be it brushless or something else.

One thing I will say is that I haven't tried the 4300 with the newest brushless esc's. Do they make a significant difference?
I never used the older ESC's, but to my knowledge, the GTB offers a vastly improved feel. It really wasn't until the latest generation of brushless ESC's that people started getting excited about them in racing.

As for stock, mod and all that... Novak's new SS13.5 motor is designed to be "just like" a stock motor. And it's true, they are. Most people agree it's impossible to distinguish a car running a 13.5 from one running a stock motor. No need for fast mods, the slow ol' 13.5 does great, without the hassle of running a fast class.

I'm not saying this because I think it should be included in stock racing (I do think it should be allowed in the clubs, at least) but because it's proof that you don't need to race mod, or even 4300's to enjoy the benefits of BL. Novak made it abundantly clear that there's hope, and possibly a future for a class that's slower like stock, but with brushless motors.

Nothing wrong with being fond of, or sentimental about brushed motors. This sport was built on them, and they're still the standard for stock and 19T racing, and will probably remain that way for a good long while. If you enjoy using them, there's no reason to change. There's enough people that feel very strongly about not using them that an entire brushless movement in R/C has a ton of momentum, so it can't exactly be dismissed or ignored.
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:22 PM   #140
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I'll have to try one of the new ESC's and reserve judgement until I've driven the new stuff. Thanks for the info.
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:36 PM   #141
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Default Another Topic ?

I just had a notion ...


All those sponsored brush drivers ?


What`s going to happen to them, after brushless takes over ?

Hummmmm.....
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:38 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
The sintered rotors give brushless lots and lots of brake. I think they give the motor more "drag" brake as well, and feel a little more natural than the other rotors. They're not legal yet, though.
I'm not picking, just asking....

But on the Trinity brushless motors, per the Trinity web site, are ROAR legal, so is this what will happen or what has happened?

From Trinity's web site:

"N40 4 Cell 1/12th Scale Racing Motor
AND
N60 6 Cell 1/10th Touring Racing Motor
Trinity has let the battle of the brushless formats (sensor & sensor less) duke it out before releasing our Neodymium “N” series of Brushless racing motors for 1/12th, Touring, and Off-Road/Monster trucks. The “N” series features the trouble free sensor less technology which also affords the use of a variety of speed controls like the Castle Creations Mamba Max and similar models from M-tronics, Tekin etc.. With Trinity brushless you are not locked into one speed control model. As speedo technology changes you will be able to pick and choose the model that you prefer. Because we decided to go the sensor less route we were able to make the fastest motors for each racing discipline right off the bat. Brushless is a small class and instead of killing it with a new “Faster” model each week we made the fastest models you would need for the current classes
right out of the box.

We designed our brushless for 1/12th and touring utilizing a compact package
that produces more power at a weight reduction over other 540 sized
brushless motors. The lighter weight affords better handling. The motor case
has a built in heatsink system to reduce temperatures and best of all the
Trinity “N” series motors are built to be legal for all ROAR racing.

Specs:

3 Turn Equivalent
Strongest Rare Earth Neodymium Magnets
Y Wind
Sensor Less
Meets all ROAR Specs
Sintered Balanced Rotor

Dual Precision Ball Bearings
Lead wires and connectors included, Leads soldered on N80"

here is the link: http://www.teamtrinity.com/shop/moto...ess-n4060.html
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:39 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
I just had a notion ...


All those sponsored brush drivers ?


What`s going to happen to them, after brushless takes over ?

Hummmmm.....
If they are not sponsored, they will come back an run Stock....... brushless...

Poking a little fun...
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:42 PM   #144
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Old 09-08-2006, 01:48 PM   #145
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The trinity motor does not meet ROAR specs because of the sintered rotor.....though they are looking into changing the rules to allow it......

Later EddieO
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Old 09-08-2006, 02:11 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
The trinity motor does not meet ROAR specs because of the sintered rotor.....though they are looking into changing the rules to allow it......

Later EddieO
I'm not positive about this, but maybe Eddie can chime in. I believe if sintered magnets are legal, it will help brushed motors as well. They seem extremely resistant to magnetic fade due to heat, which seems to affect brushed motors quite a bit.

I wonder if it will make magnet zapping obsolete?
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Old 09-08-2006, 02:17 PM   #147
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The verbiage in Trinity's ad sounds a little bit misleading to me. It doesn't come right out and say they're legal, but "built to be legal." I guess it's assumed sintered magnets are going to be legal in the future, so it's okay to say you built (or imported) the motor with the assumption that it will comply with future rules.
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Old 09-08-2006, 02:28 PM   #148
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Does anyone else remember how about 6 years ago or so all the brushed motors got the "new magic magnets" that didn't fade with heat and need to be rezapped every few runs...?

Maybe brushed motors already have magnets in them that aren't exactly legal?
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Old 09-08-2006, 02:49 PM   #149
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so after all it seems to be a good thread after all.

but last week when i was watching the A finals we had a mixed final with brushless and brushed in one heat to see who could win it and guess who won by 2 tenths of a second


1st-brushless

2nd- brushed

3rd-brushed

4th-brushless

5th-brushed
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Old 09-08-2006, 03:19 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
The trinity motor does not meet ROAR specs because of the sintered rotor.....though they are looking into changing the rules to allow it......

Later EddieO
Eddie - I know you are a motor god...

So do you take this as Erine is on the ROAR board, this will happen, or wishful thinking?

I would like to play with a brushless motor, but I'm waiting for these two things go become legal... The sintered rotor and Neodymium Magnets.

To the others, I read the following "Meets all ROAR Specs" from Trinity as they are legal, ROAR just has not told us... Maybe I'm reading it wrong, which is possible...

Look either way, I will wait until both of these are legal before I purchase a brushless to play with. I'm just trying to understand what is real and what is "marketing"....
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