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Old 09-15-2006, 06:01 PM   #121
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Cracking thread John, really enjoying the read, keep it up Dont suppose you know anyone who is handy with a video camera, it would be really nice to see this thing shift round the track
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Old 09-15-2006, 06:57 PM   #122
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have you gotten to run with any touring cars on the track? how did it compare?
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:25 PM   #123
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Thanks.

Pan Car vs Touring Car
Well I have run against a couple cars, but I can tell you how it compares to a touring car since I drive one as well. When I have had the Pan car really hooked up (paragon, coppertone, white rear the first 2.5 minutes). The Pan car is quicker in the infield. It steers very precisely. There is very little inertia to the car. I can cut the corners really tight and cut considerable distance off the race line. The chicane is handled much better than the touring car. I expect it to handle like this on a treated track for much longer. When the wing comes into effect (10 -15 feet out of a corner) you can really put the power down on the pan car and out accelerate the touring car. The first 10 feet out of a corner the touring car has an edge as it has super forward traction from the four-wheel drive. This is also why the touring car eats motors.

On a dusty track my Losi JRXS touring car will outperform the pan car as the rubber tires are narrow and tend to cut throught the dust a bit better. I think it would gain in the infield what it lost on the straights.

On the straight there is no contest. The pan car is faster. It is as fast as a 2 speed nitro gas car when the traction is just so so. With poor traction the fourwheel drive Nitro cars might take my pan car but with treatment the pan car will be much faster in the infield than the Nitro cars, at least the ones I see which are puttering around the corners. I'll see more tomorrow. If I ran the touring car on the full course I would gain considerable time here on the straight with the pan car as the touring car is geared as high as current motors will hang together. It would be going constant speed for half the straight (at 45 mph) while the Pan car is accelerating like a bullet until you lift for the sweeper.

John from Calandra and I have had a short conversation by e-mail. He is monitoring this thread and would like to see a video as well. My brother has a digital video camera. I'll see what I can do. I am a fair driver on the pan car at present, although I look mighty good when I get it hooked up well. Pretty good with a touring car. It might be a couple of weeks before I get an oportunity as racers are a bit scarce at present and I need more track time with the pan car.

Now I have seen the videos on the full size car site where, for example, the souped up GTO goes out prowling with a video camera onboard to take out the WRX's and such. Some short clips of this nature might be interesting with the pan car.
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:37 PM   #124
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I wish I could put my L3T against the Pantoura, I like my CK... I'm wondering if the saddle pack design on the L3T has and advantage or disadvantage over the CRC... I would love to get the CRC, but there's no real pan class anymore...
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Old 09-15-2006, 08:00 PM   #125
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I think the saddle pack design gives you more rear traction if you are using NiMH. I am not sure with the much lighter LiPo's if that would be an advantage. You might end up with too light of a front end. I have added little bits of weight to the front of my car like the brace to keep the front end down on the straight. It is pretty stable now, but I would not want the front end lighter. There is some serious horsepower available with the 4.5 and the car on the wing.

There is no real pan class, but I read a quote from a major motor manufacturer in RCCA mag "When you need to rebuild the motor every heat you've taken the fun out of the racing" or words to that effect.

The class did not die because it was too slow, but rather it was too fast. Racers probably got greedy for rear traction at the expense of stability on the straights. That could be controlled in the rules.

I do think the good venue for this class is on a big 1/8 scale track like the one that I run on.

I checked on that GTP body from Serpent. It is not readily available to my hobby shop. He said 3 months maybe.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-16-2006 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 09-16-2006, 01:42 AM   #126
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Just as a teaser, here's a screenshot of what I am currently working on.
It's a wide car.
I want to get it right during this winter, and get a few complete kits ready for the start of next season.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-screenshot-x11.jpg  
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Old 09-16-2006, 03:25 PM   #127
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Pro-ten-Holland- Nice Schematic. So are you going to have a raised center shock (front) so you can stick in a 2S1P Lipo.

Sixth Session
Airtemp 97F, Track temp 132 F. Clean track, I ran first with the untreated track then went and bought the sugar and we treated it. We had 4 Nitro cars and one electric.

The purpose of this project was to find a fast car that I could run on a big track with the Brushless motors of today. I have to say that I have found it at this point. I am quite satisfied with 1/10 pan. I have not had any motor thermalling. I have not had any parts breakage. Performance is good. I chunked only one tire in six sessions when the white rears were really too soft.

Best Run
We treated the track with 20 lbs of powdered sugar and water. On the last run I got 12:30 of run time before the 3800 mA-h battery went maybe just a little soft. I had good traction the whole run. Maximum motor temps was 170 F for this run (157 F on a 6 minute run). You would get a thermal shutdown at 180 F with a Novak Controller, so this is about perfect. The car was faster than an electric touring car for the whole run and I would say at least equal if not better than a 2 speed Nitro Touring car with the same skill in the two drivers on this large outdoor track.

We were able to take some digital video of Nitro vs Pan. If I get a copy I'll provide it somehow.

On the untreated track the pan car could easily take the Nitro car for the first 3 minutes. Then I lost some rear traction and the Nitro car could pull ahead. I got 6 minute runs.

It was somewhat helpful on the untreated track to add the Coppertone on top of 20 minute soak of Jack the Gripper with Pink rear tires. I only tried this once.

It was inadequate to use Jack the Gripper for a quick 5-10 minutes between runs. Traction would fall off at the 3 minute mark.

I measured the pink rear and it is wearing slowly compared to the white rear.


I experimented with caster some more. What Caster do You guys run on your 1/10 pan cars.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-16-2006 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 09-16-2006, 06:42 PM   #128
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Default Pantoura Upgrades

What upgradesdo you belive are necessary for the Pantoura? I have noticed that you replaced the stock rear axle for one from IRS...why? Is there anything else you recommend?
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Old 09-16-2006, 06:53 PM   #129
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Default Concerning Touring Cars vs Pan cars

Like Mr. Stranahan, I have also been inspired to try out pan cars. I love the simplicity and hassle free tuning and minimal mainanance required compare to TC. I have run vs Yokomo MR4TC and LCG's. THe Yoks were run with Orion 4800 Lipo and NOvak GTB & 4.5R system with foam tires, on med traction track. My pan car, the simple SpeedSpec from Speedmerchant, was powered by 4 cell 3600mah non-matched cells(stick pack), and NOvak GTB and 4.5R. The handling and quickness of the pan car is superior to the TC's, and they I was able to scoot by the corners and cut through with surgical precision with out a fight, while the TC's kept trying to keep up and pushing the cars harder to catch up and ended up overspeeding and going wide and missing the lines, sliding, etc, desperately trying to match the pan car's incredible corner speed and cutting ability, ...if they didn't push the car then they would loose more and more ground, and in the end, I had to slow down for them to make it fair. By the end of the day, the Yokomo driveers were so impressed, that have ordered their pan cars, and have asked me to sell them on ebay, so they can fund their new found love in pan cars...amazing.
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:19 PM   #130
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yyhayyim

The Pantoura really does not need the IRS axle. The stock axle worked fine. Be careful not to overtorque the stud on the axle trying to get a tight diff. The stud may pull out. A loose diff seems to work better anyway. I just got The IRS part because it looks very nice.

The side dampers may or may not work for you. It depends on how clean the track is kept. On a dirty track they tended to load up with grit on my car and lock up. This caused some mid straight spins. You could get a couple of the Associated VCS micro shocks for the side. This would be less trouble than putting on Touring car shocks. There is not quite enough room on the motor pod top plate for the touring shock tops. I ground the tops to fit and work smoothly. There is a top plate (dampener plate) on the RC10 L3T team edition (ASC 8476) that has more room on the top plate for the big shocks. It may fit the Pantoura. For me this was the only needed modification (side shocks). Part # ASC 8184 is a front shock mount antenna mount that also looked nice. I have ordered these two parts to see if they will improve the appearance of my shock mount.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-16-2006 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 09-17-2006, 02:33 AM   #131
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For my new design: the Lipo should fir in there nicely.

I've run into my first thermal problems yesterday. The motor shut down at the end of a really fast run. (novak 5.5 with extra fan on the motor).
For next weeks big race I need to take it easy to make 5 minutes!
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Old 09-17-2006, 02:30 PM   #132
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"Be careful not to overtorque the stud on the axle trying to get a tight diff. The stud may pull out..."

Now you tell me?!- I just overtightened the screw, and guess what...the axle stripped and split...need a new one. Local hobby shops dont know what I am talking about and dont carry 1/10 axles...where can I get a rear axle? Does anyone make them out of duralumin or aluminum?
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Old 09-17-2006, 02:55 PM   #133
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Default Rear Axles

Are 1/12 axles the same length as the 1/10 pan cars like Pantoura or SpeedMerchant?
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Old 09-17-2006, 03:13 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyhayyim
Are 1/12 axles the same length as the 1/10 pan cars like Pantoura or SpeedMerchant?
I never compared them off the car but if you put my Carpet Knife and 10L3T back to back they look pretty damn close...
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Old 09-17-2006, 03:17 PM   #135
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Well actually I told you back on page two of the thread which is still pretty short. Suppliers for axles are listed in the first post. IRS axles are nice. You need 1/10 pan, narrow, non offset pod, axle. You can repair your current axle in the meantime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Mechanical problems
The little 8 x 32 stud pulled out of the rear axle. It looks like it was glued in and the glue failed or maybe it just stripped the fiberglass which really does not hold threads well. I drilled it 1/4 inch deeper rethreaded it, put in a longer screw with superglue then accelerator, cut off the head with the dremmel and saved the session.
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