Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.
02-10-2007, 09:01 PM
#931
track
cool john i understand know about the track it did seem faster now that the bumps are gone and your car also looks alot faster. good work on the track
02-13-2007, 08:14 AM
#932
BAT racing- thanks.
Greasemonkey-Note that you can set your website preferences to not display signatures at all. Please do this instead of adding all that blank space. Some people do like to scroll back into the thread.
The gold 3.45 lb/in RC18T front springs worked well on the back of the car. They replaced the blue 3.00 lb/in spring. Over understeer balance is changed little as this is a small change. The car is noticeably stiffer in bump, though. This will keep the rear of the main chassis from rubbing the ground on the bumps. I am running Gold Murdoch RC springs on the front now for my next test. I am gradually adding steering traction as I get used to the car.
Note that this rear suspension and front suspension are bolt ons to a Pantoura chassis for the most part. Two holes would need to be drilled at the front of the frame rails for maximum strength. With any luck these suspension parts will become available as an add on kit as well as a whole car. 40 ounces ready to race.
John
Greasemonkey-Note that you can set your website preferences to not display signatures at all. Please do this instead of adding all that blank space. Some people do like to scroll back into the thread.
Wide 3-link Pancar with
Dual dynamic A-arm Front Suspension
The wide pancar is working very well. Pic below. The only parts that have broken are the soft plastic that I use to secure either end of the Panhard bar. This part is intentionally weak to act as a fuse in a severe crash from the side.The gold 3.45 lb/in RC18T front springs worked well on the back of the car. They replaced the blue 3.00 lb/in spring. Over understeer balance is changed little as this is a small change. The car is noticeably stiffer in bump, though. This will keep the rear of the main chassis from rubbing the ground on the bumps. I am running Gold Murdoch RC springs on the front now for my next test. I am gradually adding steering traction as I get used to the car.
Note that this rear suspension and front suspension are bolt ons to a Pantoura chassis for the most part. Two holes would need to be drilled at the front of the frame rails for maximum strength. With any luck these suspension parts will become available as an add on kit as well as a whole car. 40 ounces ready to race.
3 -Trailing Link Rear Suspension
on a Narrow Pan Car
Time for a new project. I am going to see if I can add a 3 link suspension to the back of a narrow pan car. This would suit Marty's GT car very well. All the parts are on the way. The big advantage of this rear suspension for me is much improved forward traction through dust, on an untreated track,and over the bumps at high speed. As a bonus it corners better on asphalt with this rear suspension also.John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-21-2007 at 11:29 AM.
02-13-2007, 03:49 PM
#934
Sorry John. I meant to change my signature back to something shorter but it slipped my mind.
I'm curious as to how your car would run on carpet as this thread has definitely piqued my interest and makes me look at my 10L2 sitting in the corner and wondering what I could do.
I'm curious as to how your car would run on carpet as this thread has definitely piqued my interest and makes me look at my 10L2 sitting in the corner and wondering what I could do.
02-13-2007, 04:27 PM
#935
Mathijs-Thanks-The wheelbase did increase but only slightly, 2 mm. It still fits the bodies very well, maybe even a little better. I am using trailing axles, though, which I prefer. Putting the Reactive Caster Blocks on the wrong side of the car corrected most of the wheelbase change. This is why I cannot use the 5 or 10 degree block any longer.
GreaseMonkey-Get that L2 out and start brushing back up on you pancar skills. I don't see why my pan car would have trouble on carpet. It is very adjustable. I have a full set of springs. We will have a carpet track in a couple of months to test it on. This car is so low maintenace and such a pleasure to run with brushless and LiPo that I think as soon as a few of them are out there, that pan cars will catch back on. There is as a learning curve, but if you drive well now, it is a short learning curve, maybe two or three sessions. Hints that appeared early in this thread are very helpful to cut this down.
This is really the most durable car that I have owned and I have owned many. The front suspension is even tougher than the Associated Front suspension.
I remember my first run with the pan car with the wrong tires and no Jack the Gripper. I thought things were pretty hopeless due to lack of forward grip. Now the car is one of the fastests on the track. Purple fronts and Pink rears all year long, regardless of track conditions. I really like that a lot.
GreaseMonkey-Get that L2 out and start brushing back up on you pancar skills. I don't see why my pan car would have trouble on carpet. It is very adjustable. I have a full set of springs. We will have a carpet track in a couple of months to test it on. This car is so low maintenace and such a pleasure to run with brushless and LiPo that I think as soon as a few of them are out there, that pan cars will catch back on. There is as a learning curve, but if you drive well now, it is a short learning curve, maybe two or three sessions. Hints that appeared early in this thread are very helpful to cut this down.
This is really the most durable car that I have owned and I have owned many. The front suspension is even tougher than the Associated Front suspension.
I remember my first run with the pan car with the wrong tires and no Jack the Gripper. I thought things were pretty hopeless due to lack of forward grip. Now the car is one of the fastests on the track. Purple fronts and Pink rears all year long, regardless of track conditions. I really like that a lot.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-13-2007 at 05:04 PM.
02-15-2007, 03:19 PM
#936
Gearing The Novak 3.5R in a wide Pan car
Gears that I have tried on my long 280 x 75 foot outdoor track @ 35-80 F. Summer tests to come.
96/13 =7.38 I could fit this on a narrow pod. The motor felt very soft. My 4.5 geared at 6.0 could outperform it. Good for a slippery track.
90/12 = 7.5 This is what I currently run. The car accelerates faster out of a fast corner with good traction than I have seen any other car. Great top speed. I have a report from Mathijs that he is running something similar to this with a 3.5.
93/12 = 7.75 The motor is back to ordinary. Lacks top speed and quickness out of the corners.
I found no need to adjust the gearing for tire diameter with this motor.
Note that I am running in cool temperatures at the moment and motor temp is only about 120-130 F. I also note that Azmio is running a 96/12 = 8.0 but is running at 50 C air temp = 122F. It might be to to prevent thermalling or due to a shorter track layout. I did not get a performance report.
I found that gearing this motor for best performance is very similar to a brushed motor. There is a narrow zone of gearing that makes the car feel quick at a particular track. I found the same thing to be true for the 6.5 R in a touring car. Unfortutely in a touring car you have to gear down below the best performance to avoid thermaling once the weather warms at all.
You cannot just gear these motors to the moon and keep going faster as is suggest on the CastleCreations site about the Mamba with your only concern motor temp. The motor performance is not just limited by the ability of the battery to deliver amps. Otherwise when I use dual batteries it would be twice a powerful. It is not. It is just a traditional motor inside out with similar factors limiting peformance like internal resistance, armature inertia, and reverse voltage produced.
Pivot Ball Wear.
I rebuilt my custom front suspension in preparation for Sunday Racing The pivot balls are wearing faster than with the normal suspension because the suspension can now move more freely, I suspect. Replacing the balls and the lower rod ends took out the play. I used plastic pivot balls that I had on hand as the hardcoated IRS ones are not in yet. I had one slightly bent upper hinge pin which I corrected.
New Project 3-link Narrow Pan Car
Kevin has sold me a used Pantoura chassis at a good price for this project. Thanks. Everything is a go. Parts are coming in. I have it designed in my head at the present.
John
Gears that I have tried on my long 280 x 75 foot outdoor track @ 35-80 F. Summer tests to come.
96/13 =7.38 I could fit this on a narrow pod. The motor felt very soft. My 4.5 geared at 6.0 could outperform it. Good for a slippery track.
90/12 = 7.5 This is what I currently run. The car accelerates faster out of a fast corner with good traction than I have seen any other car. Great top speed. I have a report from Mathijs that he is running something similar to this with a 3.5.
93/12 = 7.75 The motor is back to ordinary. Lacks top speed and quickness out of the corners.
I found no need to adjust the gearing for tire diameter with this motor.
Note that I am running in cool temperatures at the moment and motor temp is only about 120-130 F. I also note that Azmio is running a 96/12 = 8.0 but is running at 50 C air temp = 122F. It might be to to prevent thermalling or due to a shorter track layout. I did not get a performance report.
I found that gearing this motor for best performance is very similar to a brushed motor. There is a narrow zone of gearing that makes the car feel quick at a particular track. I found the same thing to be true for the 6.5 R in a touring car. Unfortutely in a touring car you have to gear down below the best performance to avoid thermaling once the weather warms at all.
You cannot just gear these motors to the moon and keep going faster as is suggest on the CastleCreations site about the Mamba with your only concern motor temp. The motor performance is not just limited by the ability of the battery to deliver amps. Otherwise when I use dual batteries it would be twice a powerful. It is not. It is just a traditional motor inside out with similar factors limiting peformance like internal resistance, armature inertia, and reverse voltage produced.
Pivot Ball Wear.
I rebuilt my custom front suspension in preparation for Sunday Racing The pivot balls are wearing faster than with the normal suspension because the suspension can now move more freely, I suspect. Replacing the balls and the lower rod ends took out the play. I used plastic pivot balls that I had on hand as the hardcoated IRS ones are not in yet. I had one slightly bent upper hinge pin which I corrected.
New Project 3-link Narrow Pan Car
Kevin has sold me a used Pantoura chassis at a good price for this project. Thanks. Everything is a go. Parts are coming in. I have it designed in my head at the present.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-18-2007 at 02:10 PM.
02-17-2007, 08:05 PM
#937
Tech Rookie
This is a very inovative thread. I'm lucky I just sort of stumbled along it. Recently mt brother has gotten me interested in rc. I was reading RC driver at work and saw an add for ofna's dm-one, so I was looking up rc cars with pushrod suspensions, (so far I've only seen the dm-one and Traxxas revo) and this thread came up. The idea of pan cars interests me in its simplicity. I'd like to do more research but it seems conventional manufacturers abandoned pan cars a while ago. Could you recomend a list of companies that make pan cars? Also somone mentioned somthing on people modifying the hpi F1 to use pushrod front suspensions, do you have any links or articles on how to do this? would it be possible to do this with a hpi roadstar?
Sorry, I'm not trying to hi-jack your thread, it just seems that you guys are the most knowledgeable.
Sorry, I'm not trying to hi-jack your thread, it just seems that you guys are the most knowledgeable.
02-17-2007, 09:27 PM
#938
Boosted Brick-There is a list of Pan car manufacturers in the first post of this thread. MLP also makes a push rod operated indicar. Check their Web site , http://www.mlpmotorsports.net/ for pics. Send Marty an e-mail for other info.
at the moment we are developing dampened but non pushrod front suspensions for pan cars.
The web site is under construction go here (and scroll down a bit) instead for MLP 206 F1 (pushrod suspension) photos. Here is a quote from Marty's web site.
"We have set out to bring you the best of both worlds in D-Drive Cars!
With the speed of a D-Drive car and the Suspension of a touring car.
To the Rubber Touring Car Tires.
and Lets not forget our New 235mm Pan Car with the 3link suspension and full front suspension and traditional Foam Tires.
Watch this space!
Close For Holidays Open March 1st- "
//Sunday, February 18, 2007
Breakage report
I broke the front end finally. The weak link was the steel upper turnbuckle tie rod. The steel broke right near the wrench flats at the end of the inboard thread. We had some in stock. This also caused the lower suspension arm mount to crack. Both A-arms survied. I removed the broken off threaded end by cutting a slot in it with the Dremel cutoff wheel followed by a standard screw driver. The car looked good today.
IRS hardcoated Pivot Balls
I installed the Aluminum pivot balls from IRS. They were a good fit like my original pivot balls. They required considerable force to install. They measured about .003 inch larger than the plastic balls which I took out. Interestingly the IRS king pins would not pass through their pivot balls. I changed to set of Titanium Nitride coated Associated hinge pins to solve the problem. These pivot balls have lower friction than the plastic ones. I will see how they wear.
John
at the moment we are developing dampened but non pushrod front suspensions for pan cars.
The web site is under construction go here (and scroll down a bit) instead for MLP 206 F1 (pushrod suspension) photos. Here is a quote from Marty's web site.
"We have set out to bring you the best of both worlds in D-Drive Cars!
With the speed of a D-Drive car and the Suspension of a touring car.
To the Rubber Touring Car Tires.
and Lets not forget our New 235mm Pan Car with the 3link suspension and full front suspension and traditional Foam Tires.
Watch this space!
Close For Holidays Open March 1st- "
//Sunday, February 18, 2007
Breakage report
I broke the front end finally. The weak link was the steel upper turnbuckle tie rod. The steel broke right near the wrench flats at the end of the inboard thread. We had some in stock. This also caused the lower suspension arm mount to crack. Both A-arms survied. I removed the broken off threaded end by cutting a slot in it with the Dremel cutoff wheel followed by a standard screw driver. The car looked good today.
IRS hardcoated Pivot Balls
I installed the Aluminum pivot balls from IRS. They were a good fit like my original pivot balls. They required considerable force to install. They measured about .003 inch larger than the plastic balls which I took out. Interestingly the IRS king pins would not pass through their pivot balls. I changed to set of Titanium Nitride coated Associated hinge pins to solve the problem. These pivot balls have lower friction than the plastic ones. I will see how they wear.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-17-2007 at 10:52 PM.
02-17-2007, 10:23 PM
#939
Tech Rookie
Wow, thanks John. Sorry, I kinda got caught up in all the fabrication details, the whole thing being a bit over my head, didn't occur to me to check the begining of the thread. Wow though, that F1 is wicked sick. I'm guessing MLP is Marty's buisiness, I am very jealous.
02-17-2007, 10:44 PM
#940
MLP is Marty's busisness.
This thread is kind of my history with pan cars. I started out with a narrow pan car, A stock Pantoura. Plenty of experience but no pan car experience. The first 10 pages or so until the first video are typical learning problems associated with driving a 2 wheel drive foam tired car well on outdoor asphalt. There are many good tips there from the experts (not me at that point). Then we went faster by making it wide, and then faster on an untreated track (and through a bumpy straight) by making it a 3-Link rear suspension, and then blowover resistant with a dampened front end. It is damn fast now on our long track. I am still using the original Pantoura chassis, although it is showing some wear. I run right with the Nitros.
John
This thread is kind of my history with pan cars. I started out with a narrow pan car, A stock Pantoura. Plenty of experience but no pan car experience. The first 10 pages or so until the first video are typical learning problems associated with driving a 2 wheel drive foam tired car well on outdoor asphalt. There are many good tips there from the experts (not me at that point). Then we went faster by making it wide, and then faster on an untreated track (and through a bumpy straight) by making it a 3-Link rear suspension, and then blowover resistant with a dampened front end. It is damn fast now on our long track. I am still using the original Pantoura chassis, although it is showing some wear. I run right with the Nitros.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-17-2007 at 10:58 PM.
02-17-2007, 11:02 PM
#941
Tech Rookie
I have a couple more questions, if it's ok.
John, when you bought your pantoura it was pretty much just the frame, right? and then fitted all the requiste electronics? Also, does it have a differental?
Thanks Again,
-Ryan
John, when you bought your pantoura it was pretty much just the frame, right? and then fitted all the requiste electronics? Also, does it have a differental?
Thanks Again,
-Ryan
02-17-2007, 11:17 PM
#942
Pan cars like the Pantoura come as a rolling chassis kit only...no electronics. Yes they have a differential.
