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Old 11-26-2006, 10:48 PM   #616
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Huh my bad about the RC thing just skim read and didn't see lower the outer arm. Good to see It worked for you.
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:25 AM   #617
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John
We tried many diffent things to dampen the Associated front end but in the end the DNA and Custom Works front end proved to be the only solution. Some of the bumps on the Encino Velodrome are so bad that the cars can still get airborne even with the shocked front ends.

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Old 11-27-2006, 11:18 AM   #618
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Steve-I bet you have not tried this. Put a .010 bevel on the top side of each hole in the piston on a DNA suspension. Increase the shock oil by 5 weight to restore the original roll stiffness. Performance through the bumps is much better. Here is a pic of the Losi piston that I use on this same track. I do this to each hole though. Only costs you a piston if it does not work for you. I do this by hand and inspect the size with a dial caliper. Size is not that critical.

On my pan car the Mini-T -shocks extend on bump, so I put the tiny bevel on with a 1/16 drill bit on the top of the piston. Will try this on the next dry day.

In the pic the right hand bottom hole has a bevel put on it with the 1/8 inch drill bit.

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Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-losi-jrxs-shock-piston-bevel-001.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-27-2006 at 06:04 PM. Reason: changed bottom to top
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:36 AM   #619
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Just a quick comment on the AE suspension.

It does have progressive caster which changes RC and all the other geometries - it does so on purpose.

You can get arms (or used to be able to) which don't (or had much less of an impact) and they didn't work as well.

Now - realize that we weren't doing the extreme amount of engineering that Jon is doing, but then a lot of what he's doing has been tossed (the lube on the kingpin, which we had tried, the sway bar, etc) and now he's basically using a longer kingpin (which many of us had done) and springs to adjust) along with a sweet (and really sweet) shock setup basically to dampen the action only.

These cars steer so aggressively that you actually want some degree of caster change - it's beneficial at the extremes when it comes into play. We've played with some of the geometries and each time we do, we keep going back to where we started. We looked at the Switchblade front susp (endlessly adjustable) and went back to the original.

There is so little space under the front of a GTP style body (which is so much superior to any other style) that it makes any complex suspension very very difficult to deal with. Frankly, I'm really surprised that Jon was able to get shocks under there (okay - seeing Jon's work, I'm NOT surprised. . . )

And I'll wager that adding a more complex suspension isn't going to reap the rewards you're looking for.

Just look at Jon's runs. He's back at the (basically) stock front end (modified kingpin length and springs to adjust) with shocks to dampen.

Shows the strength of AE's original engineering to cram that performance in such a small package. . .

Anyway. . .carry on with the engineering! I'll dip into Milliken this week to see if I can get any insights.

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Old 11-27-2006, 12:30 PM   #620
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There's indeed not much wrong with the Dynamic strut front end.
John, here's a setup I'de like you to try and comment on:
First go from 5degree reactive caster to 0 degree blocks.
Then go from the middle caster setting to the setting with both shimms front. You will probably get too much steering response, but then switch to purple front tires.
This should put your car back on track.
After that, switch to inline front axles. Be prepared to turn down dual rate.
As a last, swap to a softer center spring and center shock oil.

This is the setup I currently run on our 1/8th scale track. Works really well at high speeds, while still gives enough steering to be quick through the infield.

You might need to go for a stiffer front spring to compensate for the steering increase.

This setup really increases mechanical traction on the front of the car. By making the center shock softer, you build in more mechanical traction on the rear, thus giving the car more overall traction.
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:42 PM   #621
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Pro-ten-Holland- If you recall I tried the 0 degree reactive caster blocks and several caster changes on the narrow pan car. I ended up with too much steering late in the sweeper. I will try it again on the wide pan car in my next session. I plan to install the inline axle on my next car. My current car prohibits their installation as I don't get enough ride height. The inline axles end up higher than the trailing axles.

I have tried center springs softer and shock oil softer than what I run on the rear of the wide car. What I reported is the minimum that will keep the rear of the front chassis pan off the ground at reasonable ride heights. Significant wear is caused back there with contact. The car goes though the bumps best with this spring and shock oil. As it is, I replace the steel screws which protrude slightly on a regular basis as they wear down flush with the chassis. I am already using purple front tires. I made a mistake in my previous post which I have since corrected. Mechanical grip on the sweeper is huge now. Front Tire wear on these purple fronts is significant on a high bite track. I'll give a caster report later. Thanks for the tips. I will also be lightening things up on this next car. Blue mini-T side shocks for the back.

Note on Front Shocks
I think a servo mount could be trimmed to hold the bottom of the front shock. I'll try this on my next car. This servo mount from an Associated TC4 is a half height model. Pic of top and bottom You would need to drill a small hole under the front hole for the small 4 mm ball stud.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-28-2006 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:39 PM   #622
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There have been 200 hits on this thread since my last post. Thanks.


RC 18T Front Shock Track Report (with bevels to ease the bump)

The front shocks shined again. Even better than before with the bevels. I had the nose lift a little once in the last session. Not at all today. The chassis leaves the worst bumps perfectly level and settles back down in full control. I put a tiny bevel in the top of the piston holes with a 1/16 inch drill bit. Not quite to the edge of the piston. I mixed some 37.5 weight oil as I only need a thimble full. The front shocks and 4 ballstuds for it weigh .2 ounces.

RC18T Rear Side Shocks
Because of the light weight of these shocks I purchased a set of the blue aluminum RC18T shocks and a set of the gold springs for it for the rear side shocks. Slightly less tension than I had before. Inspection of my side shock oil shows that these shocks are lightly loaded. The oil is always very clean. The center shock gets a real workout on my track. Oil is always dark and well used looking. I thought I could profit from the lighter weight. With springs and adjusting collars these aluminum shocks weigh .4 ounces. I cut .6 ounces from the weight of the car with this change. The center shock should certainly stay big on my track.

RC ProSeries Nitro Nationals
I thought I would post this link to pictures that I took of the RC ProSeries Nitro Nationals at my home track. There are some nice cars, a very nice track, some nice paint jobs in the Concourse competition as well as some of the guys I run my electric against. It is a single web page with about 35 compressed photos on it. Some of you guys that run Nitro and electric may end up here next year for the ROAR Nitro on-road Nats. It was a very well run race.

John
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-mini-t-rear-side-shocks-002-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-01-2006 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 12-01-2006, 07:49 PM   #623
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just for some clarification, are you running losi mini-t shocks or associated rc18t shocks?
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Old 12-03-2006, 04:48 PM   #624
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TallyRC-Associated RC18T front shocks would be the ones to get for the front.

Race Report: Track Medium to high bite. No rubber bits on the body. (some sugar water but not the whole 22 lbs as people were anxious to get started.) 55 F.

We had another race now. 15 1/10 scale cars. Most of these were four wheel drive Nitro Sedans. The pan car qualified 3rd.

I was able to run several experiments on a recording clock this time.

I removed about 1.5 - 2 oz from the car. Lighter rear side shocks. I milled a lightening cut in my narrow to wide pan car adaptor. I removed excess plastic from the servo saver. I used the Orion 3200 mA-h Avionics LiPo pack as delivered. It is very light. I ran this setup in the first heat with GRP Purple Fronts and GRP gray rears as the pinks are unavailable at the moment. The fast lap was faster than at my last race but only by .1 second. Forward traction on the second part of the straight (at speed) was noticeably reduced. I tried two weights of oil in the mini truck side shocks in practice. Forward traction into my first hairpin was reduced. Sadly I had two blowovers. The car was just too light now. It really just lifted without a bad bump. Fortunately both times were 360 degrees and I just continued on without loosing much time.

Second Qualifier. I returned to the large TC3 rear side shocks. I added 1 ounce of lead to the front. No blowovers. Slightly better performance on the second part of the straight from the larger shocks. Quite a bit better race time (7 seconds) .1 second faster fast lap. This fast lap is .3 seconds faster than my best in the previous race. I attribute the difference to having front shocks as the rest was very similar for this run.

Main-They decided to run a 15 minute main with no input from me. Well I can run that long on two packs so I put them in. My fast lap was only .1 second slower than my previous qualifier. I was doing quite well when I had some undesired contact twice from another new racer. I ended up with a popped ball cup that was very difficult to put back on without removing the front wheel. This is due to my large spacer stack. Oh well. The forward traction was noticeably improved on the straight. On the short straight leading into the first hairpin the car was faster. This is again on a medium-high byte track. No rubber bits plastered on the underside of the body.

Conclusions
The GRP greys are a good substitute for GRP pinks. I have some Jaco greens to test later. They may act more like GRP pinks than the Jaco pinks which are too hard for my car on asphalt. My front shocks are working OK. They seem to improve lap times. I might need to tune them some more for twin batteries.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-05-2006 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 12-03-2006, 09:12 PM   #625
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TC4 Servo Mount for Lower Front Shock Mount

No contact at full lock. Note that these are rear RC18T minitruck shocks. The front mini truck shocks are a better fit.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-servo-mount-lower-shock-mount-004-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-05-2006 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 12-04-2006, 03:08 AM   #626
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How about a Vintage SCCA Pantoura Pan Car Road Racer ?
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Old 12-04-2006, 07:47 AM   #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Peterson
How about a Vintage SCCA Pantoura Pan Car Road Racer ?

Marty, I have that body on a Yok GCM with a 5800 brushless in it... It's my parking lot car.... I have to get a Bolink Chevelle body and paint it up to match my real one...

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Old 12-04-2006, 10:01 AM   #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Marty, I have that body on a Yok GCM with a 5800 brushless in it... It's my parking lot car.... I have to get a Bolink Chevelle body and paint it up to match my real one...

-Allan

Cool I have been working on a full active shock suspension like a touring car for this chassis I should be done this week and will post pictures this will be for the 190mm and 200mm GT Class cars (we are still working on the LMP front suspension) so it will still run the rear tri pod shock setup that pan cars have and will run a TC front setup with dual arms and shocks and a shock tower but it will still have the pancar front axles and steering.
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Old 12-04-2006, 03:40 PM   #629
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Marty-Thanks for the updates. Cool body.


I made some errors in my previous race report from not realizing that our first lap is short but the computer records it as the fastest lap. My apologies. The dual batteries were only .1 slower than my fastest lap in qualifier two with a single battery. This is satisfactory. My apologies.

I tried the Jaco Green rears. They seem to be a good substitute for GRP pink rear.

I tried adding some bump toe in to give me more clearance between the ballcup and the wheel. I shortened my spacer stack on the outer steering link. With two batteries I lost steering in the sweeper. Possibly some tire scrub. With one battery the steering felt OK.

I went one spring stiffer in the front (purple) to run two batteries and keep the chassis off the ground. This seemed to work well with one battery as well with front shocks installed.

I tried running my single battery sideways and back. This felt good. I'll see if I actually changed anything by getting new front and rear weights. (Weights were within .1 ounce of inline. So the benefit must be that the green rears perform better with a light car.)

I received my new wide chassis. I'll put up a pic later.

I reinstalled the RC18T mini shocks but put the shock bodies out to the next whole outboard on the knife. This restored the proper feel to the car. I had too much preload on the springs. This will lighten the car with dual batteries.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-04-2006 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:44 PM   #630
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Wide Pantoura (Stranahan Edition)

I am going to try a wide rear pod car to address 3 issues.

The Novak 3.5 may require a lower gear (smaller pinion) than I am able to use on the narrow pod car which requires an extended pinion.

The weight is biased to the left on the narrow pod car, if you run a Novak Brushless motor. I put the wide rear pod on the scales with the motor installed. The side to side weight will be perfect.

The wide chassis will clean up the front of the car a little. I do plan to install front shocks. I'll provide a complete parts list later. The chassis is from Powell. Many parts are from CRC (Pantoura), IRS, and Associated.

I moved the two photos to the next page along with a new third photo.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-07-2006 at 02:41 PM.
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