R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-31-2006, 07:59 PM   #46
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Final Install
Note that I am out of my big Red Shrink. One wire is short so that the battery cannot be plugged in backwards. Extra open plug is a balancing port. You can see the right side battery stop in the darkness under the wires.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-side-view-finished-install-008-resized.jpg  
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2006, 10:47 PM   #47
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Pro ten Holland- I guess that I am ready for a setup for asphalt. Here are some facts about the track. Large 250 x 75 with 220 foot straight (76 m x 23 m). I must run my touring car at 6.5 mm chassis height to avoid wear on the chassis bottom although it will run at 5mm with some contact. Brushed 10 x 1 are geared 7.5 to 1 (37 mm/rev rollout) overall in the touring car and reach 45 mph on the shortened electric course. GTB 4.5 is suggested at 10.25 (27 mm/rev rollout) in the touring car. I plan to run the Pantoura on the full course.

I have a little harder Magentas coming for the front and have Pink fronts (GRP)and Pink rears on hand. I have the 5 degree caster blocks with spacers on both ends of the A-arm. Caster looks to be about 4 degrees static although I have not measured it. Center shock has 35 weight, the CRC silver spring (stiff) I have a lighter copper spring on hand. Tweak (Side) springs are white (medium) and have light contact. Tweak is good. The front springs seem really stiff, but maybe that's how pan cars need to run.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-01-2006 at 11:45 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2006, 01:24 AM   #48
Moderator
 
Pro ten Holland's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Druten/Holland (Europe)
Posts: 1,677
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Pro ten Holland- I guess that I am ready for a setup for asphalt. Here are some facts about the track. Large 250 x 75 with 220 foot straight (76 m x 23 m). I must run my touring car at 6.5 mm chassis height to avoid wear on the chassis bottom although it will run at 5mm with some contact. Brushed 10 x 1 are geared 7.5 to 1 (37 mm/rev rollout) overall in the touring car and reach 45 mph on the shortened electric course. GTB 4.5 is suggested at 10.25 (27 mm/rev rollout) in the touring car. I plan to run the Pantoura on the full course.

I have a little harder Magentas coming for the front and have Pink fronts (GRP)and Pink rears on hand. I have the 5 degree caster blocks with spacers on both ends of the A-arm. Caster looks to be about 4 degrees static although I have not measured it. Center shock has 35 weight, the CRC silver spring (stiff) I have a lighter copper spring on hand. Tweak (Side) springs are white (medium) and have light contact. Tweak is good. The front springs seem really stiff, but maybe that's how pan cars need to run.
+

You have a good baseline setup there.
Run rideheight at 6.5 mm front and rear. Adjust the center shock pre-tension so the rear pod is level with the main chassis when ready to run.
Make sure your diff isn't slipping (you'll hear a squeking sound when you blip the throttle), but still has diff action.
Start with those pink's all around. Use a full coat of traction compound on the rear tires and none on the fronts.
If you need more steering, apply a little traction compound on the inner side of the fronts. Increase if needed.
If your car spins out, use thinner center shock oil, and if neccessary, a lighter center hock spring.
Make sure you apply throttle smoothly (don't blip it), otherwise your car will spin out.
37mm/rev for a 10 turns is OK, although somewhat tall.
27mm/rev for the 4.5 souns OK as a starting point. I run my 5.5 at 32-34mm/rev, so you can probably gear up when more speed is needed.

Have fun!
__________________
http://www.rc-lemans.de/
Pro ten Holland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2006, 04:41 PM   #49
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Pro-ten Holland- Thanks. I have the setup complete on the car.


Servo Spacers and tie rod clearance cut
Here is a picture of the slightly modified front end and servo mounts. I made a slight clearance bevel on the lower A-arm right where the square part of the tie rod would contact it near full lock. I used a truck tie rod end on the inside of the supplied front tie rods to make them long enough. I used a Heavy duty Kimbrough servo saver that fits the high torque KO digital servo. Bump steer is eliminated with no washers under the steering block ballstuds. I cut my long 8x32 screws to .760 inch long for a full purchase in the lower arm. The supplied screws were too short. 3/4 inch screws would be perfect as well. I used the body post body stop spacers (no washers) under the lower A-arms to achieve the correct ride height.

I received my flanged front wheel bearings which are not supplied in the kit.

Sphere High Temperature Cooling Kit
I ordered and installed the high temperature kit for the LRP Sphere speed control. It consist of the little fan that you can see in a picture above and also a larger capacitor that is soldered directly to the battery lead solder connections on the speed control. I still need to install it. First practice session next week if weather permits.

Spurs
I have a 96 tooth 48 pitch spur. it's too large (about 1/16 inch). The slots could be elongated to make the motor fit, but one of the tripple motor solder tabs will then contact the damper tube on bump. Maximum seems to be about 86 or 90 tooth. My TC3 spurs will fit. I curently have a 72 tooth installed with a 12 tooth pinion. I need to get a couple bigger spurs.

Later:I rotated the motor counter clockwise so that the solder tabs were close to the T-plate and not the damper tube. This and a small amount of dremmeling of the T-plate allowed the 96 tooth spur to fit. I put a small bevel on the motor where it would contact the damper tube on bump. This gave me full suspension travel.

Thanks all for your help up to this point. It speeded up the work.
John
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-tie-rod-clearance-trim-004-resized-.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-06-2006 at 10:10 AM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2006, 01:33 AM   #50
Moderator
 
Pro ten Holland's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Druten/Holland (Europe)
Posts: 1,677
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

I use a 78T spur on my 5.5Novak motorized car. With full size tires (approx 62.5mm) I use a 13T pinion. I don't have my rollout chart at hand, but that should work out at around 32 mm/rev which works fine for the 5.5.
For your 4.5 you should drop a tooth. Maybe a 81T spur is better suited for your needs.
On outdoor tracks I always look for a small spur. I rather have a little less efficiency than a DNF because of a stripped spur when it touches a curb stone.
__________________
http://www.rc-lemans.de/
Pro ten Holland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2006, 04:25 PM   #51
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Pro Ten Holland-Thanks. I have spurs on the way. I am starting with the 6.3 ratio that azmio suggested.

Here are some more pictures of the finished car.

First is the recommended installation of the blue high temperature kits capacitor.

Second The finished homemade Deans Half Plugs. The yellow plug is a balancing port on the battery.

Third a top view of the finished car. The battery has two stops on the left side and has one stop and a strip of foam on the speed control on the right side.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-hot-weather-capacitor-001-resized.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-dean-half-plugs-resized.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-top-view-finished-car-003-resised.jpg  
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2006, 06:27 PM   #52
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
Posts: 278
Default

John

You should be able to run well with 6.3 using 4.5 BL. I use this 6.3 for large track and still has plenty of punch coming out of corner. Since you are running sphere comp, you should be able to drop down to 6. just do several trial and error until you find your sweet spot
azmio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2006, 10:26 AM   #53
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

azmio-Thanks for the gearing help.

Sintered Rotor Install
I have the new sintered rotor for the Novak 4.5 motor. It is a nice looking piece compared to the old rotor. It is a considerably smaller diameter and a much stronger magnet than before. It will pick up a nice string of tools of the bench. The smaller diameter and high magnetic strength causes a bit of an installation problem. It wants to stay on the side of the stator and not center to enter the rear bearing. I was a little concerned about damaging the hall effect sensors that are in the bottom of the can. I put a pinion on the shaft for a good grip. I ended up taking the cardstock header off of an associated parts bag and rolled this into a long tube. I inserted the tube then inserted the rotor without difficulty. Then the tube is easily removed. (The manual recommends the shipping tube and needle nose pliers). Thought I would pass this along.

Advantages of the new rotor are- More air gap for less friction. Higher temperature resistant, the old rotor loses magnetic strength at about 180 F. Less rotational inertia for faster spoolup. Better brakes and power from higher magnetic strength.

Picture is of the inside of the Novak GTB can showing the hall effect sensors.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-gtb-6.5-motor-sensors-cropped.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-23-2006 at 05:28 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2006, 05:06 PM   #54
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

First Test Run

Air temp 92 F. Track was loose and dirty fron rain the day before. A lot of dirt thrown up on the car.

Tried pink rear pink front Paragon on Rear, Silver center spring. Had too much steering. Went to Magenta (harder) front copper center spring (weaker) and this improved. Now mid corner cornering traction was well balanced on the slower corners.

I had two severe problems that I tried to tune out. The car wandered a lot on the straights. This seemed to be a car problem rather than an operator problem. I increased caster by moving both washers to the back of the front upper A-arms. This did not help the wander but cornering feel was good. I changed the camber from -1 to about 0. This helped the most. I can drive it straight now but it is not very stable.

Spinouts on light application of throttle on mid straights. Now you might think this was just the motor was too powerful, but I could give it quite a bit more throttle on corner exit when the car was moving slow and I did not have this problem. It was like the rear of the car was not following the road well at speed and it was pulling on only one side when I applied throttle. I tried loose, medium and stiff diff action. It worked the best with a stiff diff, but I think the suspension needs some mods. I basically had almost no forward traction available. I think I need softer rears. Only used 10 % throttle. Max speed about 30 mph due to lack of stability. I might need a better body.

Damper tubes. I ran 5000 weight silicone oil in the damper tubes. These loaded up with dirt and seized. I cleaned them out and ran them dry. Little change in my two big problems.

I ran two gears which were indistinguishable due to poor traction. 96/15 = 6.4 Which I was able to fit with some small modifications and 72/13 = 5.53. The point of the 96 spur was to move the motor forward for more suspension action. The track is a little wavy at speed. The rest of the my spurs have not arrived. Maximum motor temp was 120 F after a two minute run due to lack of traction. I have not cut the tires yet. I have to build some arbors.


Suggestions are always welcome.

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-11-2006 at 11:16 AM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2006, 05:23 PM   #55
Tech Champion
 
AdrianM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,914
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Straight paragon dose not work on asphalt. Apply the paragon and wait 15 min. Thne allpy a coating of cheap runny suntanlotion to the tires and let them sit 15 to 30 min. The suntan lotion will turn clear and soak into the tires. Wipe them off as best as you can and with a clean towel squeeze the tires to pull out a little more traction compound. You should have more forward bite now. This is what pretty much everyone that runs pan cars on asphalt does.

Pink rears are going to give you the most traction. Platinums are softer but do not have much more grip.

If the track is dusty no foam tire will ever give you grip. They will load up with dust and your done. You will have more fun with your JRXS and rubber tires. Rubber still work in the dust .
__________________
Adrian Martinez
What I run: Schumacher Mi5/Associated RC10R5.1/Associated RC12R5.2/Futaba/HobbyWing/Team EA Motorsports/BSR Racing
Where I run: Florida Indoor R/C Complex/Thunder Racing/Florida On Road State Series
AdrianM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2006, 06:29 PM   #56
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
Posts: 278
Default

John

I've been through the same thing long time ago. Try to keep your setting as what recommended by the manual. What you experience requires something drastic like tire selection, no incremental adjustment will cure that sort of problem.

What I did was simple, use the hardest compound available for your front end. With hard front tire, you will have some understeer. Give it a few laps to break in all the tires. After few laps, you will have total control of your car. reduce your shore rating to get more steering.

I designed high performance engine, years ago. My colleagues from the chassis side always design their cars with some understeer. Understeer makes car controllable, oversteer makes the car uncontrollable. It's always easy to find more steering rather than to reduce it.
azmio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2006, 10:37 PM   #57
Moderator
 
Pro ten Holland's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Druten/Holland (Europe)
Posts: 1,677
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Dusty tracks are always difficult, but not impossible.
1) Use the suntan lotion
2) Diff loose, but not slipping
3) Increase caster on front end
4) drop center shock weight
5) softer center shock spring
6) use only enough lube in the tubes to get some dampening, otherwise replace them with micro shocks (like the center shock)
7) switch to purple front tires (harder than magenta) or even double purple
8) Use bigger rear wing on body

if all this doesn't help, check back, there's more......
__________________
http://www.rc-lemans.de/
Pro ten Holland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2006, 11:49 PM   #58
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Thanks for the help all.


Here is the plan. I plan to buy harder front tires as well as the softest white rears. I can still use the pink rears if the whites don't improve things. I have moved the wing back. I plan to add clear side dams for now. Increase the wing size. Add the suntan lotion after the paragon. I had a suspicion that the lack of proper side damper action was causing my spins, which happen mostly at speed on the straights. The pod may be bouncing giving me uneven traction. For this reason I added a tripple shock setup with sedan shocks which I had on hand. These are very tunable. The track will also season up a bit with use which should improve things. The 1/8 scales were sliding around quite a bit today as well.

My low speed cornering on the hairpins was actually quite good for the conditions of the track.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-tripple-shocks-005-resized.jpg  
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2006, 05:27 AM   #59
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
Posts: 278
Default

avoid pitfall when applying tire traction additive. Most additive nowadays have changed their formulation and requires a long while to dry. going in without waiting for the additive to dry will cause your car to loose out your rear end.
azmio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2006, 05:37 AM   #60
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: St Louis
Posts: 7,868
Trader Rating: 198 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
First Test Run

I had two severe problems that I tried to tune out. The car wandered a lot on the straights. This seemed to be a car problem rather than an operator problem. I decreased caster by moving both washers to the back of the front upper A-arms. This did not help the wander but cornering feel was good. I changed the camber from -1 to about 0. This helped the most. I can drive it straight now but it is not very stable.
.
More caster will give better stright line stability.
__________________
Please become an organ donor.
www.donatelife.net
Custom decals and Sno-Tee'z, T-Shirts by Sno Camel
dodgeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks John Stranahan Electric On-Road 839 11-01-2011 04:31 PM
Xray T2R, 2100 mah 2c LiPo, and Mabuchi power: Tech tips and Tricks gacjr0 Electric On-Road 46 11-18-2007 10:09 AM
tips and tricks XXX-NT streetstock Electric Off-Road 2 05-13-2005 10:50 AM
Tips & Tricks Steevo Electric On-Road 54 08-08-2003 10:09 PM
Tips And Tricks rctc3 Electric On-Road 36 03-10-2002 10:54 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 11:38 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net