R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-08-2006, 12:37 PM   #511
Tech Elite
 
tallyrc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: palm city, fl
Posts: 2,594
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default

it's stilla dynamic caster front end right? still solid lower arm with sliding undampened kingpin? i guess i need to see some better shots to tell how exactly it's different.
__________________
WWW.STORMERHOBBIES.COM helping keep pan cars alive!

Turns out not where, but who your with that really matters... DMB
tallyrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2006, 12:45 PM   #512
Tech Master
 
Marty Peterson's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,777
Default

No The Touring wheels can not be run on this car.

MLP Will be making a car like this but in true touring car wheel base and width and we will also have a setup to run Touring car tires. we will run the foams for the nitro cars but one could run the standard TC tires ok.

Look for it around the first of the year.

The New Gen-x looks sweet I like the upper ball mount and lower clamp ball but if this took years to design and test well I might be well off into my 50's before I am done with the MLP Dynamic front suspension

Ok so the Pantoura is not a true touring car wheel base right? it is in width at the rear but the front is narrow.

So on my first prototype lower Chassis I will cut one to make it as wide as the rear. and try to test it. After that one will be done in true TC Wheel base. Then after testing that I will do a Wide Pan chassis. one thing I have found that with the mamba 57000 the motor or pinion shaft comes out past the spur gear about 4mm so I do not see a problem with the pinion lining up.

I did also notice that there is no place for the rear battery hold down to mount up????? what is this about remember I have no instructions ok. I put longer screws at the rear pivot hold down and the short CRC stand offs and 2 sholder screws back the to allow the hold down to butt up to something. I do not know if the is right but it works.

On the Chassis I am going to make I will add a 3x3 and not the center cell like the Pantoura has but I will have it in a 4x4 and a mechined center to let on put in a lipo pack.

Well there you have it for MLP.
__________________
Here for the fun of it!

Selling HPI F10 Front Knuckles and Complete Rear Axles W/Diffs Ball and Gear.
W/12mm TC Hubs & W/14mm F1 Hubs Good for std bearing Pans cars. STD Bearings!
eBay item number: 200947192161,200947193175,200947187493
Marty Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2006, 12:49 PM   #513
Tech Master
 
Marty Peterson's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,777
Default

here it is a good idea and something new!
__________________
Here for the fun of it!

Selling HPI F10 Front Knuckles and Complete Rear Axles W/Diffs Ball and Gear.
W/12mm TC Hubs & W/14mm F1 Hubs Good for std bearing Pans cars. STD Bearings!
eBay item number: 200947192161,200947193175,200947187493

Last edited by Marty Peterson; 08-03-2008 at 01:44 PM.
Marty Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2006, 01:34 PM   #514
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default SERPENT GTP Body Available Now!!!

Finally, there are some in stock, the hard to get Serpent GTP 200mm body for pan cars. Its looks great and should kill on the track. see following link for pics: http://shopserpent.secure-shops6.com...&itemadd=89884 ...
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2006, 01:53 PM   #515
Tech Elite
 
Boomer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Southern Cal - Claremont
Posts: 3,346
Send a message via ICQ to Boomer Send a message via AIM to Boomer
Default

I get it - adapt the AE front end to a pillow-ball type knuckle. . .that's cool! Should give a TON more adjustability. . .
__________________
-
RC10L2.5W - RC12.4 - RCNTC3(bmi) - TC4 (modded) - B44.2 - plus rent-a-rides! :D
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2006, 05:46 PM   #516
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Here are some thoughts on the recent posts. The CRC car looks very nice, especially the back. Lower center of gravity. The front seems more of the same. The lower A-arm seems to be a new part and are more rigid. Better for when you want to shed some traction. Maybe not as good on outdoor asphalt. Very good for 1/12 scale or indoors. Just look at the results they are getting with their cars at the Cleveland race. Not so good for outdoor asphalt on 1/10 scale: not enough travel. You could fix this in the same manner that I did. Ackerman is different on the new car.

You can easily get by without a tire truer on 1/10 pan. Just rotate tires side to side once in a while when the diameters become different. The outside tire on the sweeper will wear a little faster. Rears stay perfectly flat. Fronts stay flatter by adding negative camber until they wear flat. Don't be afraid to try these foams. I ordered some pink Jaco's when the GRP pink rears came into short supply recently. I'll make a report later. Get the Pantoura. You guys that want a few more mm of width on the front get the Murdoch front inline axles and space the tire out. The axles are longer. I put up a photo previously. There are spacers supplied to adjust the width.


Marty-The rear Pantoura battery strap just slides under the knife. No attachment. I don't like this much either, but it makes changing batteries quicker. You just undo the front or force those puppies in there. The Pantoura wheel base is 255 mm the rear width with GRP tires is 200mm, the front is 185mm. This is a little like the wide pan cars: narrow in the front wider in the rear. My Losi JRXS has 265 mm wheel base. 190 mm width.

Pivot Balls-Please no huge pivot balls on my light weight electric 1/10 scales. There is just too much friction after you run it some. This is from experience on a relatively clean indoor track. A pivot pin or 4-40 ball is big enough. Pivot friction kills traction on asphalt.



Track Dusty, 85F, vacuumed some puddles from a recent rain, track "green".

Dual Battery Test
I set the wide pan car up recently with 212 mm front width (GRP tires) and have had the back at 230 mm. Wheelbase is 255 mm like the Pantoura. I reinstalled my original Peugeot 905B light weight body. I added two more stiffeners on the sides from .030 LEXAN. I believe this is the best front and back width for this body on our track. I need more suspension travel than on most tracks. The wheels can now go up into bump without colliding with the fender lips which will remove a slice of the foam. The front can be a little wider (2mm or so) due to the use of negative camber at the front. I'll test the fit again when I mount the heavy 905 B body.

I did an enduro run with both Apogee Magnum Lithium Manganese batteries hooked up. It went 23 minutes before the batts got a little soft. I did not run until they were exhausted (speed control shuts off) as they are not perfectly matched (almost). The recharge took 3300 mA-h on one side. This is about 3200 mA-h of run time for each battery. Will this run a 20 minute main on a high traction track? Probably not. But the car is so much better I will continue using two batteries. Note that previously one of these packs would run the car 17 minutes on the loose track. I had that much better traction (and also more weight) that the second battery only added about 6 minutes.

The car was quicker than it has ever been on a dusty track. Who would have thought I could make a race car heavier, not change the voltage much, and it would be this much faster. Note that I ran previously with only one battery hooked up. It was still faster. The foams did a better job of cutting through the dust with the extra weight. I am at 49 ounces with this reinforced Peugeot body. I had a couple of gas cars for company. They were not hooked up well at all, so the track was really in a low traction condition. A lot of dust piled on the chassis when I took off the body.

Sweeper Turn
The Peugeot body was now hooked up on the sweeper for the first time. The extra suspension travel from the longer kingpins and Murdoch springs did this. I could drive the white line if I wanted too. The body always had good down force in front, but I could not hook up on the sweeper before. My conclusion is that previously the tiny outside spring was bottoming. This was with a relatively heavy .022 spring (but it was a 1/12 scale spring).

Roll bar to come, to bring in the inside lane on the straight for passing. I have some bumpers in hand now. I am going to put a little helmet on the LRP cooling fan. It is in the right position. Should look cool. Fit of the Peugeot body with the speed control up high was very good. The more supple car felt really good.

almost done.

2007 ROAR Nitro Onroad Nationals

Congratulations to Mike owner of Mikeshobbyshop.com and Jeff Parker for landing the 2007 ROAR Nitro Onroad Nationals. All the top guns should be attending. This will be in about November of 2007 on our big outdoor track.

Pan car nats next?

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-08-2006 at 10:41 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2006, 08:43 AM   #517
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default Best Kit for Outdoor low traction Asphalt

John: why the change to dual battery set up? Just few posts back, we asked about what's the best battery set up for outdoor aspahlt tracks, and some like the saddle pack set up, and other like the center line set ups, like JRX-s/Pantoura/CCT kits. You stated that you love your cars balance and center/inline set up, and now you are running saddle pack type set ups, and report taht the car is even better than before- what happened? Why the change? Down here in South Florida, we have almost exact running conditions as you do in Houston, TX. Now I am worried about having sold my 10L3T, and CCT, so I could buy the PAntoura, which I ordered and should be arriving tomorrow. Should I then keep the 10L3T, and run saddle packs on it, and return/sell the Pantoura? All the 10l3T needs is really an update CRC/AE front end, and it should be ready to go. its got the 3 shock set up, and if its as you say, then it should work better than the Pantoura, unless I run the Pantoura with Orion 3200mah Lipos, one on each side, and "saddle" them, like your Apogee packs, but the orion packs are lighter and shorter, and will give me more room for electronics...what do you recommend?
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2006, 09:17 AM   #518
Tech Elite
 
vtl1180ny's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Wrong Island
Posts: 4,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yyhayyim
John: why the change to dual battery set up? Just few posts back, we asked about what's the best battery set up for outdoor aspahlt tracks, and some like the saddle pack set up, and other like the center line set ups, like JRX-s/Pantoura/CCT kits. You stated that you love your cars balance and center/inline set up, and now you are running saddle pack type set ups, and report taht the car is even better than before- what happened? Why the change? Down here in South Florida, we have almost exact running conditions as you do in Houston, TX. Now I am worried about having sold my 10L3T, and CCT, so I could buy the PAntoura, which I ordered and should be arriving tomorrow. Should I then keep the 10L3T, and run saddle packs on it, and return/sell the Pantoura? All the 10l3T needs is really an update CRC/AE front end, and it should be ready to go. its got the 3 shock set up, and if its as you say, then it should work better than the Pantoura, unless I run the Pantoura with Orion 3200mah Lipos, one on each side, and "saddle" them, like your Apogee packs, but the orion packs are lighter and shorter, and will give me more room for electronics...what do you recommend?
He's looking to have enough run time to run with the Nitro's...
__________________
I still lurk....
vtl1180ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2006, 11:03 AM   #519
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

I think the Pantoura design is very flexible. Plenty of room for thin LiPo batteries. Not too difficult to run dual batteries. I just found that on a wide pan car the extra weight is an advantage. It probably is on the narrow car as well. The top deck of the Pantoura allows a spot for the speed control with dual batteries. Side to side balance is very good. And yes I am running with the Nitros is the reason for the change. If you try dual LiPo's give us a report. I do have a report that a 1/12 scale with a single LiPo was fast but did not handle too well because it was too light. Now if I had fresh packs with the full 3800 mA-h I could probably make the 20 minute main with high traction without a stop. Just experimental type of racing. I don't compete for a place.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2006, 01:03 PM   #520
Tech Elite
 
Mason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ocala, Florida
Posts: 4,910
Default

It seems many people forget all cars/suspensions are designed to carry a certain amount of weight. when you dump a large portion of weight your wheel rates change so you have to change suspension to accomodate. We had a guy here try to run lipo in stock buggy (off-road, high bite kitty litter) and he was running stiffer in the rear than I was with regular 6 cell nimhs. his hole car ended up sliding/skidding/bouncing through most of the turns because it was too sprung. the guy was lazy so he put back in nimhs lol.
At the same token when dumping nimhs for lipo (1 pack) on a pan car, you must accomodate the given weight in change by using a thinner t-plates and softer springs. I believe the oval guys have companys with plates thinner than .63. Somebody should be able to make them. i'm sure there is some sort of math to use to figure it out what you would need for thickness.
__________________
Mason McCombs
NewRed Hobbies & Indoor Facility
Off-Road, Dirt Oval, Crawlers & Pullers
Mason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2006, 02:36 PM   #521
Tech Elite
 
Boomer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Southern Cal - Claremont
Posts: 3,346
Send a message via ICQ to Boomer Send a message via AIM to Boomer
Default

MarkA and I were talking about this last week and he actually thought that might be why some of the things we used to do with 6 cells didn't work as well for Jon. You DO need SOME weight. . .

ROAR/IFMAR rules used to require 40oz and at that weight the car really didn't seem to need nearly as much tuning to make work right - how much does your car weigh with 1 LiPo cell? gotta be pretty light!
__________________
-
RC10L2.5W - RC12.4 - RCNTC3(bmi) - TC4 (modded) - B44.2 - plus rent-a-rides! :D
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2006, 03:28 PM   #522
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

What about running the Lipo down the middle on the Pantoura, but adding 2 Nimh cells on the side also, like a 2 cell saddle pack(not connected of course), or if needed, just add 2 more cells, like a 4 cell saddle pack. This way you have the weight down the middle, but you can also tweak and tune it with the extra nimh cells, placing them on the sides towards the rear, or front, as needed.
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2006, 03:51 PM   #523
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,777
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to John Stranahan
Default

Thanks for the discussions of weight. Here is what I think.

The rear springing and shock oil on my car is already very light (like the thin T-plate). 3.6 lbs springs only on each side. You can barely feel the tension going side to side with the pod in your hand. The fronts then have to be stiff enough for the car to handle in a neutral manner. The car is handling very well. With one battery it was very fast. With two batteries I can use 40 % more brakes on a loose track. The difference is the traction is better. This is what is making the car faster. I think the springs are fine. When the track is very high bite the handling is as near perfect as I can imagine except the inside lane on the straight is still a problem. It lifts the front wheels. I had the Peugeot nose rise on this inside lane and I hit my rear side dams which extend down low (but 3/4 inch off the ground). Like a Wheelie bar. A blow over was just barely prevented.

Note I am always willing to adjust the front and rear springs. I have many times on this car.

I would certainly experiement with adding weight to a single LiPo car. See if lap times get better or your sparring partners get slower. Mine was faster with the second LiPo on board and not wired up. Faster still with both wired up. My sparring partners would no longer spar. Adding weight is a cheap experiment to do.

My car was 41 ounces with one LiPo, 49 ounces with two LiPo's Not especially too light but we have some bumps that don't affect the 1/8 scales but affects the stiffly sprung front end on this car.

Now here is my last solution:

KSG Sway Bar Installed
I should be able to lighten the front springs one or two sizes and bring in this inside lane. I had already tried a softer spring wich cured the blowovers, but gave me too much front grip in the corners.

A couple of things to note from the photos. The Pantoura bumper did not really have enough material to drill and countersink for the huge screws that hold the sway bar mounts. I used a G10 graphite bumper for the TC3 from Penguin RC. I plan to lighten it with a large triangular cutout under the transponder. The transponder really should have air underneath. We had several guys not registering at the last race. This is probably their problem.

Note the original holes for the A-arms are the outer ones on the graphite chassis itself. Note how little extra chassis you need to come up with a 212 mm Front end. This is the width of the Front of a little used RC10L that I measured with original tires. This is what I set my front end to recently. A little nub of extra chassis drilled and countesunk for a wide car would hardly be noticeable on any new sidewinder drive car.

Antiroll Bar Bench test
I measured the roll stiffness on the bench with one antiroll bar arm loose. Then I measured it with the .060 inch antiroll bar that I made connected up. It just about doubled the roll stiffness. I was able to go down two sizes to the green progressive spring to get the original roll stiffness back. I will fine tune at the track. Now the front springs feel the same as the back when you push the front or rear body posts down.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-ksg-sway-bar-installed-002-resized.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-ksg-sway-bar-installed-bottom-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-09-2006 at 06:49 PM.
John Stranahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2006, 08:09 AM   #524
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default Touring Vs Pan Car Challenge

John: great stuff- keep the track reports comming!

This comming Sunday, 11/13/2006, will be the re-match of last weeks races featuring pan car(Narrow Corally CCT) vs. 1/10 nitro TCs(serpent 720, KyoshoRRR), and vs. some hot Yokomo Mr4tc bd, supped up with Novak 3.5R, Lipo and foam tires. Will be ordering a Corally C10X soon and see how it does on thse outdoor low-mid traction tracks, in hot South Florida. But for now, especially for the race this weekend against the Sepernt and Kyosho RRR drivers from last week, who want a re-match, I'll have to manage with the Corally CCT or 10L3T, which did very well last race. It seems now that the best choice would be to keep the 10L3T or the CCT, for outdoor asphalt racing, since both can be run with saddle pack set up, and thus have more rear weight and traction than, and thus quicker and faster, than the Pantoura or CCT with centerline battery set up. Our tracks here are are med size, with mixes of open and technical section, but bumpy and abraisve asphalt. We clean then and lightly sugar water treat them, and on official race days, they are VHT'ed. However, I dont count on track being VHT'ed. Most of the time, the tracks are a little dusty, but relatively clean, during the week, when I practice, but they are sugar water treated for the week ends- this is the best I hope for. But most of the time(4-5 times a week, during weekdays) I run without the track being sugar water treated. I know for sure the nitro guys will be optimizing their rides and try to get some revenge on CCT. They will be ready and on top of their game. I will need to be ready also, and need the best traction possible under those conditions mentioned above. So maybe the 10L3T will be a bit better than the CCT/Pantoura for this Nitro vs. Pan car challenge for 11/12/2006. If you have any suggestions, tips, recommendations, please let me know now, because later today I will hit the track again and test the performance of the cars and see which I will take. Need help with the correct procedure for adding traction sauce to tires so the traction lasts for over 8 minutes, at least. Im running Jaco Pink rears and Jaco Purple fronts. Using TQ tire sauce, but it doesnt seem to be working well, since it only lasts for about 3-4 minutes. I have tried applying the sauce and waiting for 10, 15, 20, minutes, on the Jaco White rears I was using last race, and the max I got was 4 minutes of traction, which sucks. Luckily for me the competion could not hang and pulled their cars off the track by the 3rd minute or so. But theis really needs to get fixed. John recommended the Corally "Jack-the-Gripper" sauce, so will check at LHS and see if they have it. If not need something else- maybe paragon?
__________________
Yohan Hayyim [Associated RC10B4.1]

"Release the Kraken"
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2006, 09:08 AM   #525
Tech Elite
 
vtl1180ny's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Wrong Island
Posts: 4,963
Default

yyhayyim, rule of thumb is that T Bar cars work better on asphault and Link cars work better on carpet. I don't know why this is, and I supposed a top level driver can make either work....

I need to drag out my L3T again... I have many more cars than I have electronics for... Plus, I have to keep saddle packs... I think I'm going to pick up a Maxamps saddle pack and pretty much leave it in the car....
__________________
I still lurk....
vtl1180ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks John Stranahan Electric On-Road 839 11-01-2011 04:31 PM
Xray T2R, 2100 mah 2c LiPo, and Mabuchi power: Tech tips and Tricks gacjr0 Electric On-Road 46 11-18-2007 10:09 AM
tips and tricks XXX-NT streetstock Electric Off-Road 2 05-13-2005 10:50 AM
Tips & Tricks Steevo Electric On-Road 54 08-08-2003 10:09 PM
Tips And Tricks rctc3 Electric On-Road 36 03-10-2002 10:54 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 01:02 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net