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Old 10-17-2006, 06:24 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Marty- Probably best to move the suspension discussion off the pan car thread to here. I did make one more post over there since you posted a third diagram. So here is a sketch. Advantages are no protrusion above the upper arm. Rising rate (the suspension does not "break over center" or become weaker at full bump). coil over shocks or springs can be very low. Now the question is, is there enough room to do something like this. The suspension can be maybe only 1/16 inch higher than the Associated based on my experience with the Peugeot body slammed way down. Also there would be considerable force on the pushrod at the lower angle and lesser mechanical advantage at the bellcrank. Less spring tension would be required as a result.

I would also try and design the car to work with a short servo which are now available and maybe we can lay it down flat and feed off the front of the servo saver instead of the back. This would give the suspension more room and possibly allow some parts interchange left to right. My servo does not stay put mounted like it is. Mounts are too soft and slippery. I am always resetting steering trim. A one piece aluminum sevo mount for both sides in one piece would help my up angled servo.

Can you add some points to this sketch please I think I am missing something here.

I do know in our F1 suspension the bellcrank can be moved lower and would not be a problem for the body. I am sure if you give me some end points on your sketch I will know ok.

Thanks
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:29 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim
Have tested both suspensions. The Corally C10X wide car suspension is TC like. Its smoother and lower than Associated's. I think that if we are talking about front suspension, this would be a good starting point. See the following links for pics:

(1)http://www.corally.net/Home/Produkte...0x_pro_10.html

(2)http://international.corally.com/images/C10X1.jpg

Yes these are both good suspension setups but it is not the way I for one want to go I have been working on full suspention cars with both upper and lower arms that move and that have more adjustment.

I am looking to get out of the box of pancar setups and more into a real car suspension dynamics.

Thinking this would let us tune for any kind of track.
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:55 PM   #333
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keep in mind part of this upswing of interest in pancars is the relative simplicity, ease of maintenance, low cost, and low weight.. the more complicated it becomes, the more it defeats the purpose for many of us..
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:01 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyhayyim
John & Marty: what's the best battery placement set up you have tested which gives best results for outdoor asphalt racing? Straight down the middle like the Pantoura, Corally CCT, Losi JRX-S, etc, or saddle pack style set ups? Maybe its better centerline/inline set up, so that weight is kept as much centered as possible, and thus keep the car from transferring so much to the outside on cornering, and prevent understeer/oversteer pblms, or some say its the opposite, the more weight on the edges, the better for low grip aspahlt, since more weight is placed on tires and thus more tractions...what has been your experience?
Well both have there + and - 's and it comes down to the track and the setup and the driver.

years ago when the Crossfire F1 came out it had the center line battery setup and we tested it to the F103 and testing both out door (on our 1/8 scale tracks) and indoor tracks, I found that the CF car was faster turn in but the traction was not there like the F103. The CF car had better turn in over the F103.

So when I made our DF1 D-Drive car this year I put in 5 battery slots on each side tou give you a better weight transffer and better tuning for the Chassis and adding the F206F1 suspension should do it for that car.

But anyway I am out to make a front suspension for a pancar first and them move on to the rest of the car I will do our car in the 5X5 slot setup.
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:16 PM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Here is the thing. Those full size cars have a real suspension in the front. Probaly have 3 - 4.5 inches of front travel.

I have exactly 2.5 mm of front travel. That's .1 inch. In real scale that would be 1 inch. That is just not enough. At speed the bump will lift the dam, all bets are off if there is not enough weight to pull it back down in the next few milliseconds. Forget lifting the throttle. It happens way too fast. I have some experience here on a long rough track. The pan car nats was discontinued from this very problem. I would rather the bump lift the wheels and scrape the dam. I stick by my statement. now if you are running 6 cells NiMH you have about 7 more ounces of weight on the car. Front end lift may not be such a problem. I have never liked saddle packs just from the Kiss principle that Pro-ten Holland brought up. Now tell me how a sideways six cell pack is different, other than appearance, than two 3 cell packs in a saddle pack placed toward the back. Certainly that angled center shock is not much improvement over a high shock except for a tiny bit smaller center of gravity. My car actually handled much better outdoors when I raised the center of gravity with the body.

YYhayhim-Tell me on the Corrally C10 X. Is the camber and caster Adjustable. Can you get front springs?

Roll Centers
I have done some thinking (and sketching) on roll centers at the front of the Associated car. I have a feeling that it does not change at all when you tinker with the angle of the upper arm, it always ends up centered at the level of the lower arms which are parallel to the ground. I welcome discussion on this. You do affect camber changes by tinkering with the upper arm. With two moving A-arms you would have the ability to actually lower the roll center for Asphalt. The front roll center is really high on my car, thats why a high center of gravity caused such an improvement.

I have though about the rear roll center on these cars as well. I don't think you can call the rear pivot the roll center and my test with lowering the pivot certainly reflect this. On a full size car with a solid rear axle, leaf or coil springs, no Panhard bar or Watts link, the rear roll center is centered on the axle. The panhard bar or Watts link is added to make this adjustable. I think that on our pan cars the rear roll center is at the ground and moves quickly to the outboard corner of the outside tire on roll since everything is solid back there.
I concur :
Running Pan cars years ago on a 1/8 scale track and down the front straight the cars would all do a mini lift kinda like the cars that ran at Mosport International Raceway back in the day if I remeber right.
We had a bump in the middle of the track and even the 1/8 scale nitro cars we ran would lift the front and some did do bolw overs
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:19 PM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
keep in mind part of this upswing of interest in pancars is the relative simplicity, ease of maintenance, low cost, and low weight.. the more complicated it becomes, the more it defeats the purpose for many of us..

Well I do know that all to well and I had to findout the hard way
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:50 PM   #337
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Or maybe the renewed interest is the thread and the raw speed of the beast. I don't mind a little tech in my pan car. Here is another sketch. All that is done here is the spring is moved off the kingpin to allow more travel. The lower arm is made movable so the roll center can be adjusted. There are simple cars like the Corraly C10 x and Speed Merchant speed spec already available. It would be nice to have a car that would capably handle the very high speed on the straight.
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Old 10-17-2006, 08:38 PM   #338
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Ok Check it Now I think we are on the same page and I feel when this is done it will be the only way to go!
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eBay item number: 200947192161,200947193175,200947187493

Last edited by Marty Peterson; 08-03-2008 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:29 PM   #339
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I like your new additions that are highlighted. I am not a bell crank expert, but it looks like in my drawing as the suspension goes up into bump the first movement will produce a modest movement of the spring. Soft at first. Then as a harder bump is hit there is more movement of the spring for each increment of movement of the suspension arm. (The suspension gets harder). This will prevent a hard bottoming of the suspension against a mechanical stop. ( I may be lookig at it backwards). This is what produces the flight. The shape of your bellcrank may produce the opposite effect hard at first then softer. A mockup of the actual device and some measurements would let you know better. Maybe you have some software that does this. It also looks like you could just flip yours 180 degree and get mine.
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:46 PM   #340
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No you are looking at it right and it will work just like that and as for software to test it out No it was on my computer that got damaged in our flood and is not come back yet but I do know that I can make this as soon as I fill some orders and get some free time. When I am done with it I will send you the setup and Mathijs (Pro Ten Holland) and the 3 of us will test it and see what is what as they say ok.

And what body is this?
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eBay item number: 200947192161,200947193175,200947187493

Last edited by Marty Peterson; 08-03-2008 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 10-17-2006, 10:32 PM   #341
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That would be good. I have been using the Peugeot 905 B that I have been talking about fitting the suspension well to. Stormer has these in stock. They have a thick model .030 inch that would be more suitable to a high speed track, I think. My thin style is rather floppy on my track. I'll put up a link.

https://www.ssl-stormerhobbies.com/c...s&pn=PFM140722

Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-17-2006 at 10:43 PM. Reason: Incorrect on the body. Edited it out.
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Old 10-17-2006, 10:37 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Peterson
No you are looking at it right and it will work just like that and as for software to test it out No it was on my computer that got damaged in our flood and is not come back yet but I do know that I can make this as soon as I fill some orders and get some free time. When I am done with it I will send you the setup and Mathijs (Pro Ten Holland) and the 3 of us will test it and see what is what as they say ok.

And what body is this?
It's the Hot Bodies Toyota. It's what I'm using right now.
It's available by Stormer as well.
It handles similar to the Peugeot.

Marty, I really appreciate what you're doing!
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Old 10-17-2006, 10:44 PM   #343
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Thanks and Hey do not thank me you will be doing all the work Testing ok. I may not get time to get out with the move that maybe coming up at the end of the year.

I will order them both.
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W/12mm TC Hubs & W/14mm F1 Hubs Good for std bearing Pans cars. STD Bearings!
eBay item number: 200947192161,200947193175,200947187493
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Old 10-18-2006, 12:34 AM   #344
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Hey John and Mathijs I am going to need all of the Info on your Cars ok
I need to make sure I have the same Chassis and parts as the both of you to start with ok.

Thanks

Oh I was J/K on the testing ok LOL.

But we are Moving to Las Vages around the 1st of the year.
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Old 10-18-2006, 07:29 AM   #345
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Default THANK YOU!!!

Marty, John, PRO-TEN, a big thank you. You dont know how much you have exited us about rc driving again. What you guys are doing will save a lot of disgruntled TC drivers like myself, who have fallen in love with Pan Cars, thanks to John and PRo-Ten, who have helped us see the light. Its a No brainer!! Pan cars run better, for much, much, less, w/o all the set head aches...its a beatifull thing! Cant wait for you fellsa to complete the project! C'mon Marty, forget the orders pending and work on these rockets! Make up some kind of excuse or get more help. John, get an intern at MLP!!!
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