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Old 10-16-2006, 08:59 PM   #301
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Default Suspension

John: what do you think of this suspension system: www.corally.com
go to the "cars" link, and cehck out the 12X. THis is the way a suspension should look...what do you think? I;d love to get one and try it on 1/10 pan car...
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Old 10-16-2006, 09:32 PM   #302
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yyhayyim- I don't like the fact that it only has one arm. No negative camber gain on roll. It does have caster change on roll. On a full size car this would be called a swing arm suspension as found on very old fullsize VW bug rear ends. This is probably good on the surfaces that 1/12 scale race on as is the Associated suspension. Not that good on outdoor asphalt where traction is not so high that you have to get rid of a bunch of it. Don't like the T bar much. There is a reason why our hobby shop, that only stocks 1 of any 1/12 part, has a fist full of T-bars in stock. These are just opinions not gained from actual experience with the Corally car. It might be great.

Note the new product on that Corally website, more flexible RDX touring car arms. This occured since I last discussed it.

Losi will also incorporate more flexible arms into its upcoming JRXS type R. This is a similar small step toward flexures, as is the RDX flexible arm, that will increase cornering traction.


tweaked t-bars vs sagged flexure.

The associated bottom arms already have a huge sagging problem as is. I tried to change just one once and there was huge difference in ride height left to right. I had to change both. Flexures with an auxilliary spring would probably work fine even if they sag with time. You just add a little more preload from the coilover shock. Flexures are not required to twist consistently, just bend. You might need to change both if you break one. Graphite sheet is probably more fatigue resistant than the material on an associated front end or on the T-bar. A titanium flexure might work great. There is already a company, FlextecRC, that makes flexible unbreakable titanium formed sheet arms for large offroad RC cars. They can tune in any amount of flex desired in vertical or fore and aft directions.

You would still tune a flexure equipped car with springs and shock oil. The flexure would equal less than the weakest spring that you would want to use. You would only change it if you break it. You loose stiction from the inner a-arm pivot and from the shock pivots as they are now not loaded very high. You can use lighter springs, and shocks, and shock supports. Well again this is all academic as I don't make cars.

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Old 10-17-2006, 07:56 AM   #303
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Yeah the Suspension on that thing is not what I am looking on doing but thanks to John I did come across this not what I am going to do but it was Nice to look at. But it is an Oval car. And I will email them and see if they have a road car or if any of you know if they do let me know ok.

Move over F103GT if they do!
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Old 10-17-2006, 08:03 AM   #304
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Marty There is a company that makes add on front suspension for the pan car that is touring car like. It looks like it will fit a narrow car. Maybe thats where those pics are from. The only problem is that it is very tall and thus the GTP or LMP bodies are a poor fit. Note that a newly created LMP body might fit your Indi car front suspension as the cockpit is moved forward on this type of car.

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Old 10-17-2006, 09:16 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Marti There is a company that makes add on front suspension for the pan car that is touring car like. It looks like it will fit a narrow car. Maybe thats where those pics are from. The only problem is that it is very tall and thus the GTP or LMP bodies are a poor fit. Note that a newly created LMP body might fit your Indi car front suspension as the cockpit is moved forward on this type of car.
Oh John Thanks for the link and yes it would not work for what you and I want to do but If I could get his lower arms it would be a start and see what they look like. So I will order his kit.

But you and I need it real low! to fit the bodies I know I have 2 suspension setups that will work good for the front and stay with the 3 shock setup for the rear Plus if we do not run shocks I will make 2 slide tube with spring seats on them to keep the springs in place.

I feel both will work and after I get this run of orders out of here I will go into this Pan car Full speed and any Ideas you have on Chassis deisn and stuff like that will help - I am going to use my Pantoura as a test car! I forgot I had it
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:50 AM   #306
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I saw that front suspension a while ago, I think it's more intended for the dirt oval guys than the carpet track....

Marty, couldn't the F1 front suspension be modified to fit a pan chassis?
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Old 10-17-2006, 11:40 AM   #307
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I thought the DNA front suspension was for insane speed runs on velodromes. but i guess it would work on dirt also.
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Old 10-17-2006, 12:03 PM   #308
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The DNA front suspension should work great on rough outdoor asphalt as it has more travel. That is what my front suspension needs. It would reuire a body with a tall hood. Most 200 mm bodies fit this description so it should work good on a narrow road pan car. Probably not as good for very high traction carpet, but you can stiffen the springs.

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Old 10-17-2006, 12:19 PM   #309
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Marty- Probably best to move the suspension discussion off the pan car thread to here. I did make one more post over there since you posted a third diagram. So here is a sketch. Advantages are no protrusion above the upper arm. Rising rate (the suspension does not "break over center" or become weaker at full bump). coil over shocks or springs can be very low. Now the question is, is there enough room to do something like this. The suspension can be maybe only 1/16 inch higher than the Associated based on my experience with the Peugeot body slammed way down. Also there would be considerable force on the pushrod at the lower angle and lesser mechanical advantage at the bellcrank. Less spring tension would be required as a result.

I would also try and design the car to work with a short servo which are now available and maybe we can lay it down flat and feed off the front of the servo saver instead of the back. This would give the suspension more room and possibly allow some parts interchange left to right. My servo does not stay put mounted like it is. Mounts are too soft and slippery. I am always resetting steering trim. A one piece aluminum sevo mount for both sides in one piece would help my up angled servo.
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Old 10-17-2006, 01:33 PM   #310
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Default Corally C10X Suspension Vs. Assocaited

Have tested both suspensions. The Corally C10X wide car suspension is TC like. Its smoother and lower than Associated's. I think that if we are talking about front suspension, this would be a good starting point. See the following links for pics:

(1)http://www.corally.net/Home/Produkte...0x_pro_10.html

(2)http://international.corally.com/images/C10X1.jpg
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Old 10-17-2006, 01:38 PM   #311
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Default Battery Placement

John & Marty: what's the best battery placement set up you have tested which gives best results for outdoor asphalt racing? Straight down the middle like the Pantoura, Corally CCT, Losi JRX-S, etc, or saddle pack style set ups? Maybe its better centerline/inline set up, so that weight is kept as much centered as possible, and thus keep the car from transferring so much to the outside on cornering, and prevent understeer/oversteer pblms, or some say its the opposite, the more weight on the edges, the better for low grip aspahlt, since more weight is placed on tires and thus more tractions...what has been your experience?
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Old 10-17-2006, 01:47 PM   #312
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I think you'd be better with the weight more towards the rear of the car with a saddle pack (10L) or a setup like the F1's rather than the pack straight up the center like the Pantoura.
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Old 10-17-2006, 01:58 PM   #313
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Default Best Battery PLacement for Pan Car Racing on Low grip asphalt

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
I think you'd be better with the weight more towards the rear of the car with a saddle pack (10L) or a setup like the F1's rather than the pack straight up the center like the Pantoura.
Interesting, but why? Do you belive or have tested and seen that the car has more corner speed and traction with saddle pack style like 10L, where weight is on rear and on the outside on the edges, and thus more weight on rear tires? How does this set up affect cars hadling on low-med grip ashpalt vs an ceter/inline style set up?
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:25 PM   #314
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Besides running on carpet the hardest thing to achieve on a pan car is rear traction, keeping the weight over the rear wheels would be the best route. I'm going to bet that the Pantoura would be a very nice car (even narrow) on carpet where traction is rarely ever a problem.
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:29 PM   #315
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I think the answer has more to do with the actual speed the car will reach. If the weight is toward the rear you will have more forward traction as the rear wheels have more load. Good for a short track. If the car is reaching 50 to 60 mph you will start to have instability with too much weight in the back. The car will tend to become airborne on the bumps if there are any on the straight. A more even weight loading might be desirable. I have recently added a little weight to the front of my wide car even though it has inline, but very light, battery pack.

Given the same weight front to back on two cars one that is wide and one that is narrow I would center the weight on the wide car to have it turn faster. Weight on the perimeter of the narrow car would slow its spin rate and make it more drivable on a loose track. On a high traction track I would keep the weight centered on both cars. This is based on driving both the narrow and the wide car and noting the differnece in high speed stability and spin rate on the two on both low and high traction surfaces.

I would still avoid saddle pack cars so that I could run LiPo's eventually with it. Lipo's do perform much better in the car in spite of my problems with them.
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