Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.
09-22-2008, 06:34 AM
#2071
I prefer the narrow chassis on my wide pan road car. It rolled better, flexed better and gripped better. I saw no evidence of axle vibration on the narrow pod car compared to a wide pod car. Please explain.
I have corrected this paragraph based on corrections below.
On the Gen X 10 You get the narrow car, then get the wide kit and you are ready to go. This is what I would do in preference to a wide chassis and wide pod.
Now if you get this setup you will find the pod is exactly like the custom one that I run. It is intermediate in size between full narrow and the very wide pod. (I don't have the new CRC pod in hand so this is a guess) Pod balance left to right will be perfect. A short pinion will work. You will have great motor access for Remove and Replace.
Eventually I hope CRC Includes this brusless conversion as part of the original car. Thre are still some dinosour brushed guys still around though.
You will really like the LiPo tray when (not if) you go LiPo with the car. Who else has got that. Eventually if you want to lighten the axle up a bit, you can buy the wide pan axle and wide pan right hub with the brushless car. This is expensive though.
John
A
I have corrected this paragraph based on corrections below.
On the Gen X 10 You get the narrow car, then get the wide kit and you are ready to go. This is what I would do in preference to a wide chassis and wide pod.
Now if you get this setup you will find the pod is exactly like the custom one that I run. It is intermediate in size between full narrow and the very wide pod. (I don't have the new CRC pod in hand so this is a guess) Pod balance left to right will be perfect. A short pinion will work. You will have great motor access for Remove and Replace.
Eventually I hope CRC Includes this brusless conversion as part of the original car. Thre are still some dinosour brushed guys still around though.
You will really like the LiPo tray when (not if) you go LiPo with the car. Who else has got that. Eventually if you want to lighten the axle up a bit, you can buy the wide pan axle and wide pan right hub with the brushless car. This is expensive though.
John
A
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-23-2008 at 02:36 PM.
09-22-2008, 08:20 AM
#2073
Jisses..this wasīnt so easy...
Well however i have emailed Mr D. We have to wait and see.
Well however i have emailed Mr D. We have to wait and see.
09-22-2008, 11:23 AM
#2074
The rear axle is supported at itīs best with a pod as wide as possible with zero or just a small shim. This is just a technical fact, talk of lever rule (right word?). Of course construction of the rear pod also does influence this and a very stiff pod will help here with a narrower pod. But here lays the problem with the Gen X-10, this pod has very good access to the motor but is not very stiff. With 200mm wide and/or slow motors this seems no problem but I know some other have/had problems here with the 235mm adapters. One guy just couldnīt finish a single run. Always the spurgear was damaged. Now with making a new wide rear pod as RC10L2 all problems are gone.
Regarding the long pinions itīs a similar thing. These do vibrate more than the short ones causing the motorshaft to swing. Itīs a known thing some certain BL motors canīt stand that swinging and do break.
At the German Nationals I followed a discussion from the winning driver with some other guys about chassis construction. His opinion on the pod is exactly the same as me, anything other didnīt work for him too.
Regarding chassis balance he doesnīt care at all about this, infact heīs running a T-Bar car with the battery just on one side and this car still handles and is one of the fastest.
John, you wrote
On the Gen X 10 The ideal setup is a bit complex. You get the narrow car, then you get the adaptors for Brushless. This moves the motor plate right .150 inch for better balance with brushless. Then get the wide kit and you are ready to go. This is what I would do in preference to a wide chassis and wide pod.
Iīm sorry I donīt understand here what you mean. What adapters for brushless? I think there is the basic Gen X-10 car and the bolt on wide adapers for the rear axle. I donīt know of anything other.
Regarding chassis wide I canīt say anything here as I just have the PRC wide chassis for the Pantoura, not the original narrow one. I think this flexes enough, anything other I have had or seen flexes less not more. The original RC10L2 chassis flexes less than half of this and this maybe is too stiff sometimes.
Iīm using not the original batteryplate from the Pantoura but my own triangular design plate with 3 screw connecting to the chassis. I think this conserves some flex of the chassis better, but actually this design was needed because Iīm using Lipo batteries with different connectorpositions.
I will post a picture later.
I just can say my wide Pantoura worked very good from the beginning with no problems at all and not a single lap tracktime before 1st race. Just setup similar to a RC10L2. I just have to say there are some differences to the original design including wheelbase. The pod is exactly the same dimensions as with the RC10L2, also I know of some other cars what are using the full wide pod including that custom Gen X-10.
Regarding the long pinions itīs a similar thing. These do vibrate more than the short ones causing the motorshaft to swing. Itīs a known thing some certain BL motors canīt stand that swinging and do break.
At the German Nationals I followed a discussion from the winning driver with some other guys about chassis construction. His opinion on the pod is exactly the same as me, anything other didnīt work for him too.
Regarding chassis balance he doesnīt care at all about this, infact heīs running a T-Bar car with the battery just on one side and this car still handles and is one of the fastest.
John, you wrote
On the Gen X 10 The ideal setup is a bit complex. You get the narrow car, then you get the adaptors for Brushless. This moves the motor plate right .150 inch for better balance with brushless. Then get the wide kit and you are ready to go. This is what I would do in preference to a wide chassis and wide pod.
Iīm sorry I donīt understand here what you mean. What adapters for brushless? I think there is the basic Gen X-10 car and the bolt on wide adapers for the rear axle. I donīt know of anything other.
Regarding chassis wide I canīt say anything here as I just have the PRC wide chassis for the Pantoura, not the original narrow one. I think this flexes enough, anything other I have had or seen flexes less not more. The original RC10L2 chassis flexes less than half of this and this maybe is too stiff sometimes.
Iīm using not the original batteryplate from the Pantoura but my own triangular design plate with 3 screw connecting to the chassis. I think this conserves some flex of the chassis better, but actually this design was needed because Iīm using Lipo batteries with different connectorpositions.
I will post a picture later.
I just can say my wide Pantoura worked very good from the beginning with no problems at all and not a single lap tracktime before 1st race. Just setup similar to a RC10L2. I just have to say there are some differences to the original design including wheelbase. The pod is exactly the same dimensions as with the RC10L2, also I know of some other cars what are using the full wide pod including that custom Gen X-10.
09-22-2008, 12:03 PM
#2075
Intersting reading guy's.
I ran my Darkside I-Fource for the first time outside set up in 235 mode with a lipo and 10.5 brushless and TQ'd and won our 2 day outside race in Denver. (one of the few places where pan car has never gone away and will not with me around) But we did the same fropnt plates set up as Mick did to win the Canadian race. I'm not sure what he did for the axle, but I used the IRS wide one with some spacers on the right side and a custom spacer on the left side. I use the HPI gears and Corally extended pinions (helps to have run a C10X for years) and the narrow motor pod. Our track is a parking lot that we run 6-7mm clearance to keep from beating up the chassis and I did not see a problem, but that may have been masked by the rough surface.
I'll need to look at this as there is a group that was talking about trying 5.5's / 6.5's in them and seeing how quick we can get them.
I ran my Darkside I-Fource for the first time outside set up in 235 mode with a lipo and 10.5 brushless and TQ'd and won our 2 day outside race in Denver. (one of the few places where pan car has never gone away and will not with me around) But we did the same fropnt plates set up as Mick did to win the Canadian race. I'm not sure what he did for the axle, but I used the IRS wide one with some spacers on the right side and a custom spacer on the left side. I use the HPI gears and Corally extended pinions (helps to have run a C10X for years) and the narrow motor pod. Our track is a parking lot that we run 6-7mm clearance to keep from beating up the chassis and I did not see a problem, but that may have been masked by the rough surface.
I'll need to look at this as there is a group that was talking about trying 5.5's / 6.5's in them and seeing how quick we can get them.
09-22-2008, 03:43 PM
#2076
This is the wide Pantoura I did build with the PRC parts.
Some things are different than with the original one.
The rear cross brace is just used for the sidesprings now so springs could be changed after removing 2 screws. Tubes and bodyposts are sitting now on better positions at the triangular pieces looking similar to the nerfbars from the RC10L cars but mounted higher now.
2 standoffs are used for each so this is very strong and stiff, also the nerfbars stay in places when the cross brace is removed for changing sidesprings.
I donīt like sideshocks very much as these always have some rebound, sometimes not, sometimes not even for both. Choosing a good tube, with an optimized position is working better in my opinion. The old Calandra are very good.
An U-shape batteryfixing system is used at the chassis so the battery cannot move sideways. This canīt be seen very good in the pictures.
For the batteryplate the original one wouldnīt work with my Lipo batteries as the connectors are in different places on some of them. The triangular design was choosen because of this also I wanted a little more flex in the chassis as itīs usually when 4 standoffs are used. Maybe I will try using the batteryplate from the Gen X-10 later but anyway I didnīt get one when the car was build.
Actually I had planned using graphite for the "nerfbars" and batteryplate but I got some bad quality graphite so did choose glassfibre as I had this laying around here. Looks a little provisional currently but it works what is the only important. These will be replaced later.
Low rollcenter pivot and different sidelinks were used. I think smoothness and playfree here make a big difference in handling. The original are not that good. If you want the sidelinks as onepiece units as the original I found RPM makes different ones what are much stronger. I did choose 3 piece links what are adjustable.
The centershock is a large size similar to Tamiya. I think works better than the smaller.
For the frontend inline axles were used instead of the usual trailing type. Itīs more direct and a little more steering.
Some things are different than with the original one.
The rear cross brace is just used for the sidesprings now so springs could be changed after removing 2 screws. Tubes and bodyposts are sitting now on better positions at the triangular pieces looking similar to the nerfbars from the RC10L cars but mounted higher now.
2 standoffs are used for each so this is very strong and stiff, also the nerfbars stay in places when the cross brace is removed for changing sidesprings.
I donīt like sideshocks very much as these always have some rebound, sometimes not, sometimes not even for both. Choosing a good tube, with an optimized position is working better in my opinion. The old Calandra are very good.
An U-shape batteryfixing system is used at the chassis so the battery cannot move sideways. This canīt be seen very good in the pictures.
For the batteryplate the original one wouldnīt work with my Lipo batteries as the connectors are in different places on some of them. The triangular design was choosen because of this also I wanted a little more flex in the chassis as itīs usually when 4 standoffs are used. Maybe I will try using the batteryplate from the Gen X-10 later but anyway I didnīt get one when the car was build.
Actually I had planned using graphite for the "nerfbars" and batteryplate but I got some bad quality graphite so did choose glassfibre as I had this laying around here. Looks a little provisional currently but it works what is the only important. These will be replaced later.
Low rollcenter pivot and different sidelinks were used. I think smoothness and playfree here make a big difference in handling. The original are not that good. If you want the sidelinks as onepiece units as the original I found RPM makes different ones what are much stronger. I did choose 3 piece links what are adjustable.
The centershock is a large size similar to Tamiya. I think works better than the smaller.
For the frontend inline axles were used instead of the usual trailing type. Itīs more direct and a little more steering.
09-22-2008, 08:22 PM
#2077
V12 - Very nice car. I had the same issue with the side shock's until I spent some time with Mr. Darkside running his oval car. These guys have the side shocks down to an art. I don't claim to have that talent yet, so if needed, I have eric build them for me and once done, and I don't break the car, they work very well.
But I really like moving the body posts out to the center of the rear tire. This will really help the 235 body keep from flexing as much. Did, Dolug make the top and bottom motor pod plates for you? I may see how this might work on the I-Fource as I've been asked to try a 5.5 or 6.5 and play on the pavement.
But I really like moving the body posts out to the center of the rear tire. This will really help the 235 body keep from flexing as much. Did, Dolug make the top and bottom motor pod plates for you? I may see how this might work on the I-Fource as I've been asked to try a 5.5 or 6.5 and play on the pavement.
09-22-2008, 09:22 PM
#2078
V12, must say this looks exatly what i have painted up in my head!. Not sure what the plate calls, the one where you have the tubes mounted on,and body post? this is the one i have asked for and it will be checked by PRC same for batt"strap" ofcourse design and look is important but the tha way it will be used is the overall most important
Little worried about all drilling and so for the d-tubes etc...this is real important it will be 100% right.
Little worried about all drilling and so for the d-tubes etc...this is real important it will be 100% right.
09-23-2008, 01:28 AM
#2079
Thanks guys. Regarding the sideshocks I donīt doubt these could be done working perfectly but I think this is much more difficult. Also you have to be careful about correct length of the sideshocks and other things, this isnīt as critical with the tubes. Same if you want change the damping that takes more time. Of course you have to work more often on the tubes (refilling the oil/grease) as with the shocks but thatīs not that important to me.
Moving the body posts out is important in my opinion. Thatīs bad with all of the new 200mm cars when you want going 235mm. Of course their bodymount position is optimized for the 200mm bodies. I didnīt went completely to the center of the rear tire but to the same position as the RC10L2 so I could use the same bodies. But the mountingplate for the tubes and bodyposts aka nerfbars was made a little larger than needed so I could moving out the bodyposts even further.
Yes the top and bottom motor pod plates are made by Doug also, actually the upper plate is from the MAX10/replacement for the RC10L2 but works for the wide Pantoura also. Itīs just you have to drill new holes for the tubes as the old CRC tubes are using a thinner thread. Also I shortened the upper plate a little and moved the hole for the centershock more to the rear.
Thomas, drilling the holes for the tubes isnīt that difficult. That was one of the last things I made after assembling the whole car. I had made one plate provisional and tried different positions then so nothing is in the way of the tubes and they are working in the correct angle. When you have finished one plate completely just use this as a template for making the other or more (as spares). Thatīs just was I made for making sure both sides are identical.
Moving the body posts out is important in my opinion. Thatīs bad with all of the new 200mm cars when you want going 235mm. Of course their bodymount position is optimized for the 200mm bodies. I didnīt went completely to the center of the rear tire but to the same position as the RC10L2 so I could use the same bodies. But the mountingplate for the tubes and bodyposts aka nerfbars was made a little larger than needed so I could moving out the bodyposts even further.
Yes the top and bottom motor pod plates are made by Doug also, actually the upper plate is from the MAX10/replacement for the RC10L2 but works for the wide Pantoura also. Itīs just you have to drill new holes for the tubes as the old CRC tubes are using a thinner thread. Also I shortened the upper plate a little and moved the hole for the centershock more to the rear.
Thomas, drilling the holes for the tubes isnīt that difficult. That was one of the last things I made after assembling the whole car. I had made one plate provisional and tried different positions then so nothing is in the way of the tubes and they are working in the correct angle. When you have finished one plate completely just use this as a template for making the other or more (as spares). Thatīs just was I made for making sure both sides are identical.
09-23-2008, 02:42 AM
#2080
Grenade
The body at your avatar looks great. Could you post a fullsize picture?
The body at your avatar looks great. Could you post a fullsize picture?
09-23-2008, 10:53 AM
#2083
Thanks for the pics and posts guys. Nice cars and paint.
v12-I agree the wide pod better supports the axle on the left side. The right side support is the same. As a few of us have run a narrow pod with no spur gear difficulty, I have to think the problem was with the individial car, like worn bearing or bearing support, loose screws, motor bearing worn, etc I know you cured the problem with a wide pod, but I believe the problem could have been cured with the narrow pod. There is some value to equal treatment of the left and right axle ends from a suspension standpoint. I like the 1.25 inch hub on the left as it better aligns the wheel to the axle.
This next paragraph is in error see posts below.
On the CRC GEN X 10. Not too long ago maybe a week there was an add for a new set of parts for the GENX 10. This included new upper and lower pod plates and new right hand hub all to move the motor right by .150 inches for better balance with brushless. I cannot find the part number righy now. I will send an e-mail. It is difficult to find things on their web site as there are so many catergories they the could put it in. I would personally like the option of single long list of all their electric products. There just aren't enough to warrant all the subcategories. The best part of this kit is that then a short pinion can be used to ease the wear on the motor and axle bearing. That is why my pod is in this sam configuraion. Right side the same as a wide pod. Left side the same as a narrow pod.
Thomas note that a lot of guys on this thread build their own wide cars. Thats probably not he best route for your first wide pan.
John
v12-I agree the wide pod better supports the axle on the left side. The right side support is the same. As a few of us have run a narrow pod with no spur gear difficulty, I have to think the problem was with the individial car, like worn bearing or bearing support, loose screws, motor bearing worn, etc I know you cured the problem with a wide pod, but I believe the problem could have been cured with the narrow pod. There is some value to equal treatment of the left and right axle ends from a suspension standpoint. I like the 1.25 inch hub on the left as it better aligns the wheel to the axle.
This next paragraph is in error see posts below.
On the CRC GEN X 10. Not too long ago maybe a week there was an add for a new set of parts for the GENX 10. This included new upper and lower pod plates and new right hand hub all to move the motor right by .150 inches for better balance with brushless. I cannot find the part number righy now. I will send an e-mail. It is difficult to find things on their web site as there are so many catergories they the could put it in. I would personally like the option of single long list of all their electric products. There just aren't enough to warrant all the subcategories. The best part of this kit is that then a short pinion can be used to ease the wear on the motor and axle bearing. That is why my pod is in this sam configuraion. Right side the same as a wide pod. Left side the same as a narrow pod.
Thomas note that a lot of guys on this thread build their own wide cars. Thats probably not he best route for your first wide pan.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-23-2008 at 02:34 PM.
09-23-2008, 12:21 PM
#2084
Hi John,
I believe you are talking about the below hop up which is for the Gen X and not the Gen X 10. Just called CRC and doubled checked with them if this was for Gen X 10 and said no it is not.
************************************************** *******
New CRC Gen-X Hop ups!
Indoor season is almost upon us and Team CRC has new go-fast goodies for all you Gen-X drivers that want to keep your ride up to date with all the latest trends in carpet racing.
#3349
Offset Rear Pod for Brushless Motors
Now Gen-X drivers running brushless systems can get the weight centered in the rear pod by using this offset pod setup. This setup moves the motor plate .15 further to the right, getting the weight of the bigger, heavier brushless motor back to the center of the car. We were able to accomplish this by narrowing the diff hub by the same .15 that the motor plate was offset. Not to worry though, as you can see in the pic below, the bearing spacing on the new hub has kept the same dimensions as the old stock hub so you will not need any extra hardware or have to worry about extra wear on the hub bearings.
3349 - Pod Conversion - Retail $49.99
(Includes bottom plate, top plate, x-brace, & diff hub)
Barcode : 800734033493
Available 9/15
To order click HERE
I believe you are talking about the below hop up which is for the Gen X and not the Gen X 10. Just called CRC and doubled checked with them if this was for Gen X 10 and said no it is not.
************************************************** *******
New CRC Gen-X Hop ups!
Indoor season is almost upon us and Team CRC has new go-fast goodies for all you Gen-X drivers that want to keep your ride up to date with all the latest trends in carpet racing.
#3349
Offset Rear Pod for Brushless Motors
Now Gen-X drivers running brushless systems can get the weight centered in the rear pod by using this offset pod setup. This setup moves the motor plate .15 further to the right, getting the weight of the bigger, heavier brushless motor back to the center of the car. We were able to accomplish this by narrowing the diff hub by the same .15 that the motor plate was offset. Not to worry though, as you can see in the pic below, the bearing spacing on the new hub has kept the same dimensions as the old stock hub so you will not need any extra hardware or have to worry about extra wear on the hub bearings.
3349 - Pod Conversion - Retail $49.99
(Includes bottom plate, top plate, x-brace, & diff hub)
Barcode : 800734033493
Available 9/15
To order click HERE