Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.
09-26-2006, 01:07 PM
#181
Originally Posted by JevUK
This is what I did when I raced pro-10 at nationals.
Used corally silver star tires on the rear and prep them this way:
Leave adative on for aprox 1 hour
5 mins before the race rub the adative in with a towel
Use a circular motion over and over
Keep going till the tires just feel sticky rather than wet
Rubbing the adative in really helped my tires hold traction for a whole 5 min race. It's better when the towel is a bit adative soaked so you rub it in more than just soaking the adative off.
The Silverstar tires were much softer than anything else I ever saw. I think just about every one was using them on the rear.
When the tires are more than half worn they will not work very well.
Used corally silver star tires on the rear and prep them this way:
Leave adative on for aprox 1 hour
5 mins before the race rub the adative in with a towel
Use a circular motion over and over
Keep going till the tires just feel sticky rather than wet
Rubbing the adative in really helped my tires hold traction for a whole 5 min race. It's better when the towel is a bit adative soaked so you rub it in more than just soaking the adative off.
The Silverstar tires were much softer than anything else I ever saw. I think just about every one was using them on the rear.
When the tires are more than half worn they will not work very well.
With todays power, those tires will wear more than 2mm per run!!!
To be honest, the silverstar tires are fast, but I never liked em because the bizar wear.
From corally I prefer the Goldstar medium rears and green rears.
09-26-2006, 09:15 PM
#182
Video
Let me set up this two lap video a bit. There are no young drivers in it. Carl is driving the yellow Nitro car in the lead. I am driving the Green Pantoura. We both would finish well in a Sportsman class race. Nitro drivers (Sportsman class) take a little wider line so the car will hold up for a full 30 minute main. Carl's son Jason is taking the video with a brand new to them camera. They were using this session to find a good place to take videos. This video was taken at track level just under the drivers stand. I think up in the drivers stand is a better place and we will try that next.
We did this chase many times. In the video the Pantoura is about 30 feet behind on the near straight. Unfortunately, you cannot see the cars well on the straight, but you can hear the Nitro car accelerate shift, accelerate and then drop throttle for the sweeper. You can see the pan car only about 5 feet behind as they pop into view at the far right on the slow end of the sweeper. The two cars were about equal speed on the straight and hitting maybe 60 mph (radar tested previosly at some races) Most of the distance gained on lap 1 was made up on the sweeper itself as the pan car literally outcornered the Nitro car here. You can then see the second lap continue and a pass is made at the very end with a tighter turn on the near side hairpin. Straight is about 180 feet. Track is 270 ft. x 75 feet.
Video Pantoura vs Nitro (2.7 MB)
If you have trouble I can e-mail the file. Cut us some slack this is our first video posting. Both cars were faster after the sugar water treated track dried completely.
Let me set up this two lap video a bit. There are no young drivers in it. Carl is driving the yellow Nitro car in the lead. I am driving the Green Pantoura. We both would finish well in a Sportsman class race. Nitro drivers (Sportsman class) take a little wider line so the car will hold up for a full 30 minute main. Carl's son Jason is taking the video with a brand new to them camera. They were using this session to find a good place to take videos. This video was taken at track level just under the drivers stand. I think up in the drivers stand is a better place and we will try that next.
We did this chase many times. In the video the Pantoura is about 30 feet behind on the near straight. Unfortunately, you cannot see the cars well on the straight, but you can hear the Nitro car accelerate shift, accelerate and then drop throttle for the sweeper. You can see the pan car only about 5 feet behind as they pop into view at the far right on the slow end of the sweeper. The two cars were about equal speed on the straight and hitting maybe 60 mph (radar tested previosly at some races) Most of the distance gained on lap 1 was made up on the sweeper itself as the pan car literally outcornered the Nitro car here. You can then see the second lap continue and a pass is made at the very end with a tighter turn on the near side hairpin. Straight is about 180 feet. Track is 270 ft. x 75 feet.
Video Pantoura vs Nitro (2.7 MB)
If you have trouble I can e-mail the file. Cut us some slack this is our first video posting. Both cars were faster after the sugar water treated track dried completely.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-07-2006 at 07:16 PM.
09-26-2006, 10:38 PM
#184
John that video is great !
We will be doing some testing with the car laer this week, I just got in contact with IRS, they are supporting our effort in the enduro, he want's to see some video to, look like we are going to setup a live webcast, like they just did in Vegas IIC, if you missed it, it was fun to see people you have herd of, and for me people I know picking thier butts durring corner working, anyhow i will post some pics and info as soon as we get some work done. Keep up the good work
We will be doing some testing with the car laer this week, I just got in contact with IRS, they are supporting our effort in the enduro, he want's to see some video to, look like we are going to setup a live webcast, like they just did in Vegas IIC, if you missed it, it was fun to see people you have herd of, and for me people I know picking thier butts durring corner working, anyhow i will post some pics and info as soon as we get some work done. Keep up the good work
09-27-2006, 02:35 PM
#186
Thanks guys. Carl and I are working on a new video that may show the straight quite a bit better. By the way his car is a Mugen MTX-4. The motor is a fairly new O.S. .12 TZ MOD. My Pantoura is running the Novak 4.5 R motor. I can see a 3.5 in my future.
Lola T530 Gas Outlaw body
I tested the Protoform Lola T530 Gas Outlaw body on the narrow pan car today. I have little good to say about it. I first tried it in the low wing position and body mounts in the same position as my Stilletto body. This is a bit lower than the wheel cutout marks suggest front and back. I had a little more steering traction. Not good. I had less stability on the straight. I moved the body way down in front next. This shortened the nose a little and reduced frontal surface area. I put the wing up. I still had too much oversteer. I still had poor stability on the straight, enough so that I could not reach full throttle. I tested this body back to back twice with the Stilletto body. So the home modified Stilletto is a keeper for the narrow car. (or that Salleen) This Lola body seems to work better for the gas cars. The main problem for me are two fold. The front of the body is very steep and very high for a pan car. This gives too much front grip. The side dams go too far forward, this along with the high flat sides at the front moves the center of lateral wind pressure farther forward than neccesary for a pan car.
John
Lola T530 Gas Outlaw body
I tested the Protoform Lola T530 Gas Outlaw body on the narrow pan car today. I have little good to say about it. I first tried it in the low wing position and body mounts in the same position as my Stilletto body. This is a bit lower than the wheel cutout marks suggest front and back. I had a little more steering traction. Not good. I had less stability on the straight. I moved the body way down in front next. This shortened the nose a little and reduced frontal surface area. I put the wing up. I still had too much oversteer. I still had poor stability on the straight, enough so that I could not reach full throttle. I tested this body back to back twice with the Stilletto body. So the home modified Stilletto is a keeper for the narrow car. (or that Salleen) This Lola body seems to work better for the gas cars. The main problem for me are two fold. The front of the body is very steep and very high for a pan car. This gives too much front grip. The side dams go too far forward, this along with the high flat sides at the front moves the center of lateral wind pressure farther forward than neccesary for a pan car.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-27-2006 at 08:11 PM.
09-27-2006, 07:46 PM
#187
strange, that is the same lola body i run on my 10l3t, and even with green rears not treated, my car pushes like a freight train once i get it moving at all.... i absolutely slammed the body as low as i could get it, and maybe even raked it forward a bit... i'll get some pics.. check that, i'm running the serpent body i think...
09-27-2006, 08:08 PM
#188
That increase in steering was slight, but it made the car very hard to drive as mine tends to have too much steering traction anyway. The track was also loose today. My biggest objection was lack of stability on the straight. Now if I had the wing like in the full size car link that I posted above it would have worked great. It has big side dams quite far back. It has no side dam up forward like the Protoform.
My rear wing really needed to be higher up off the body.
If your car pushes try treating 1/2 the inside front tires with traction compound or try a softer front. What a luxury that would be for me.
My rear wing really needed to be higher up off the body.
If your car pushes try treating 1/2 the inside front tires with traction compound or try a softer front. What a luxury that would be for me.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-28-2006 at 10:44 AM.
09-28-2006, 08:26 AM
#190
Your Peugot and Toyota bodies should be to you soon. . .
09-29-2006, 02:53 PM
#191
Thanks.
Track was loose today.
I made a few more changes to the car. I removed 1 ounce from the front. This included removing the graphite bumper, but leaving the foam bumper which weighs very little. This will make the car more succeptible to suspension arm breakage in a hard crash. I changed the Aluminum spacer nuts on the servo mounts to plastic nuts of the same size. I Removed the suspension cross brace.
I found some 3.5 pound/inch (very light) front Associated buggy Springs (green) on the wall. I removed about 1/16 from each side shock ball cup to provide space for the long springs. (Cutting off a coil will make the springs stiffer). They installed with a small amount of preload which is fine. Tweak was good. My new shock tops came in so all the blue is back in place.
I lowered the front of the body one hole down on the relocated body supports. I retrimmed it shorter. The front fenders on this Stilletto body are the ideal size for a pan car tire. The hood is low. I like both of these features.
The car had slightly less stability on the straight from the lighter front end, but it had a little softer steering now in the corners. I could drive harder. On occasion I could recover from an impending spin before it happened. I had more steering traction entering the sweeper. I could drive it a bit harder to start with. This is probably from the lower inertia as well as increased flex of the front suspension from removing the brace. I liked the changes. Here are a couple of pics of the changes. I drilled the body post for the lower body pin which keeps the bumper more flat.
Current Setup
Front Springs .022 inch diameter wire. Front Ride Height 5 mm
Caster 1 degree, 5 degree reactive caster block.
Rear Side Springs 3.5 pound per inch (lb/in), oil 20 weight (SAE), #2 piston
Center Spring 12.5 lb/in oil 40 weight, #2 piston, Rear Ride Height 6.5 mm
Pod droop when held in the air about 2 mm.
Low roll center kit shimmed up .018 inch with a single Losi spring steel Belleville washer, pointy side up, but tightened flat. For strength. It makes a very thin washer.
Purple front, Treat inner 1/2 With Corraly Jack the gripper. The front tire is 3.3 inch diameter now from wear and truing. Camber 0.
Pink rear, Treat full tire 20 minutes with Corally Jack the Gripper
Rear Tire is 3.3 inch Diameter Now from wear. I have used it a lot.
Motor Novak 4.5 R with LRP Competition Sphere Speed control. Gear 6.0 (84/14), Steel Pinion. Diff Loose but not slipping. Batteries are 3800 mA-h Magnum LiPo's from Apogee.
We plan to treat the track for some more video tomorrow if the weather is good.
Track was loose today.
I made a few more changes to the car. I removed 1 ounce from the front. This included removing the graphite bumper, but leaving the foam bumper which weighs very little. This will make the car more succeptible to suspension arm breakage in a hard crash. I changed the Aluminum spacer nuts on the servo mounts to plastic nuts of the same size. I Removed the suspension cross brace.
I found some 3.5 pound/inch (very light) front Associated buggy Springs (green) on the wall. I removed about 1/16 from each side shock ball cup to provide space for the long springs. (Cutting off a coil will make the springs stiffer). They installed with a small amount of preload which is fine. Tweak was good. My new shock tops came in so all the blue is back in place.
I lowered the front of the body one hole down on the relocated body supports. I retrimmed it shorter. The front fenders on this Stilletto body are the ideal size for a pan car tire. The hood is low. I like both of these features.
The car had slightly less stability on the straight from the lighter front end, but it had a little softer steering now in the corners. I could drive harder. On occasion I could recover from an impending spin before it happened. I had more steering traction entering the sweeper. I could drive it a bit harder to start with. This is probably from the lower inertia as well as increased flex of the front suspension from removing the brace. I liked the changes. Here are a couple of pics of the changes. I drilled the body post for the lower body pin which keeps the bumper more flat.
Current Setup
Front Springs .022 inch diameter wire. Front Ride Height 5 mm
Caster 1 degree, 5 degree reactive caster block.
Rear Side Springs 3.5 pound per inch (lb/in), oil 20 weight (SAE), #2 piston
Center Spring 12.5 lb/in oil 40 weight, #2 piston, Rear Ride Height 6.5 mm
Pod droop when held in the air about 2 mm.
Low roll center kit shimmed up .018 inch with a single Losi spring steel Belleville washer, pointy side up, but tightened flat. For strength. It makes a very thin washer.
Purple front, Treat inner 1/2 With Corraly Jack the gripper. The front tire is 3.3 inch diameter now from wear and truing. Camber 0.
Pink rear, Treat full tire 20 minutes with Corally Jack the Gripper
Rear Tire is 3.3 inch Diameter Now from wear. I have used it a lot.
Motor Novak 4.5 R with LRP Competition Sphere Speed control. Gear 6.0 (84/14), Steel Pinion. Diff Loose but not slipping. Batteries are 3800 mA-h Magnum LiPo's from Apogee.
We plan to treat the track for some more video tomorrow if the weather is good.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-29-2006 at 04:17 PM.
09-29-2006, 03:29 PM
#193
Thanks. I'll note that that was repeated many times on the high grip track. I follow generally for a time until I can make a really clean pass.
Jeff is going to try to make it into the video this time. He is a bit faster than us both with the same car probably. We'll see how the pan car does. I may be able to drive it harder with the recent changes. I took some sample video from up in the drivers stand of the empty track today. It looks like it will be a much better place to take video from.
Jeff is going to try to make it into the video this time. He is a bit faster than us both with the same car probably. We'll see how the pan car does. I may be able to drive it harder with the recent changes. I took some sample video from up in the drivers stand of the empty track today. It looks like it will be a much better place to take video from.
09-30-2006, 12:55 AM
#194
Try the 0 degree (no reactive caster) blocks. They will make your car easier to drive.
Add front camber. Adjust to make the tires wear even. Camber is rarely used at pancars for setup purposes (there are plenty of other things to adjust to create the same effect). This will make your car more predictable, and change its behaviour less during a run.
Swap left and right tires every run to avoid tweaking it by uneven tires.
I always run my car this way (camber for even wear and continuously swapping left and right tires) and I never have to re-true my tires.
Add front camber. Adjust to make the tires wear even. Camber is rarely used at pancars for setup purposes (there are plenty of other things to adjust to create the same effect). This will make your car more predictable, and change its behaviour less during a run.
Swap left and right tires every run to avoid tweaking it by uneven tires.
I always run my car this way (camber for even wear and continuously swapping left and right tires) and I never have to re-true my tires.
09-30-2006, 01:47 PM
#195
No company to take video with so maybe next Saturday.
First run went 15 minutes. Car handled well.
Then I changed Reactive caster blocks to 0 degree. Kept the 1 degree of Caster, added slight negative camber. Results: the car had too much steering late in the corner. This caused many spins and an inability to give good power on corner exit. It became unstable on the bumpy straight (from camber). Went back to my posted setup and all is well. I had not tried the 0 degree block previously, so this was a good test to make.
Thanks for the tire rotation tip.
CASTER
I thought this would be a good time to post my thoughts on caster. Caster gives the car three benefits.
First on most cars it gives the steering some self centering ability. When you turn the radio wheel the whole front of the car actually lifts from the caster. It has a tendency to settle back down and return the steering to straight ahead. This tendency is almost absent in the pan car as the steering has very little slack and the digital servo holds it strongly to the position you put the radio wheel, so you need to physically straighten the last bit of the corner or you will induce a spin, more so than a touring car.
Second, Caster provides the outside front tire with a little more negative camber. This hurts the cornering early in the corner, but helps the cornering later in the corner after the car has rolled some. I was using the 5 degree reactive caster block to kill some of my caster late in the corner.
Third. If you put the front wheels of the car on scales and turn the radio wheel you notice the inside front wheel and thus the diagonal outside rear wheel gain some load. Easy to see on the scales. This adds wedge to the chassis and increases the steering traction of the car. I think this is the dominant effect on our RC cars. As you guys have posted the camber is not really a good tuning aid, just a wear aid. This is also what I have found to be true on touring cars and the pan car.
First run went 15 minutes. Car handled well.
Then I changed Reactive caster blocks to 0 degree. Kept the 1 degree of Caster, added slight negative camber. Results: the car had too much steering late in the corner. This caused many spins and an inability to give good power on corner exit. It became unstable on the bumpy straight (from camber). Went back to my posted setup and all is well. I had not tried the 0 degree block previously, so this was a good test to make.
Thanks for the tire rotation tip.
CASTER
I thought this would be a good time to post my thoughts on caster. Caster gives the car three benefits.
First on most cars it gives the steering some self centering ability. When you turn the radio wheel the whole front of the car actually lifts from the caster. It has a tendency to settle back down and return the steering to straight ahead. This tendency is almost absent in the pan car as the steering has very little slack and the digital servo holds it strongly to the position you put the radio wheel, so you need to physically straighten the last bit of the corner or you will induce a spin, more so than a touring car.
Second, Caster provides the outside front tire with a little more negative camber. This hurts the cornering early in the corner, but helps the cornering later in the corner after the car has rolled some. I was using the 5 degree reactive caster block to kill some of my caster late in the corner.
Third. If you put the front wheels of the car on scales and turn the radio wheel you notice the inside front wheel and thus the diagonal outside rear wheel gain some load. Easy to see on the scales. This adds wedge to the chassis and increases the steering traction of the car. I think this is the dominant effect on our RC cars. As you guys have posted the camber is not really a good tuning aid, just a wear aid. This is also what I have found to be true on touring cars and the pan car.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-30-2006 at 09:32 PM.