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Old 02-14-2008, 07:47 PM   #1906
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Oval with Wide Pan Car
I ran the oval a full pack (50-60 laps) with the wide pan car. I treated the track with 8 lbs of sugar. Traction was medium. Much beter than last test. I had a little oversteer in the middle of the corners last session. I subtracted a little wedge. I put the car on the MIP tweak station and it was about 1/8 bubble off from tweaked. This seemed to be enough. I could now add throttle mid corner and the car would drift out very evenly to clear a cone on the end if I was coming in short. I also added a bigger wing.
The only change I have made to the car is to move the battery left. This is probably only a 2 ounce preload on the left. One problem remains that may clear up when I change to the oval chassis with more preload: On corner exit I can apply more throttle just as the car starts to straighten, but I am getting a tendency to oversteer (hook) here. Now this is normal pan car behaviour, but I think it can be tuned out some possibly with different caster settings on left and right side. I have about 4 degrees on both sides now. If you have corrected this with caster or otherwise Please Advise me. I am getting about a 7 second lap time on a relatively short 165-170 foot race line. I still think 6 cell stock would be the way to go as my 6 cell 3.5 was not a bit uncomfortable and had good throttle control. I say my problem may clear up with the oval chassis, because with 5 ounce preload on the left there may be some torque steer to the right to help me out on corner exit

John.
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:23 AM   #1907
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Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Oval with Wide Pan Car
I ran the oval a full pack (50-60 laps) with the wide pan car. I treated the track with 8 lbs of sugar. Traction was medium. Much beter than last test. I had a little oversteer in the middle of the corners last session. I subtracted a little wedge. I put the car on the MIP tweak station and it was about 1/8 bubble off from tweaked. This seemed to be enough. I could now add throttle mid corner and the car would drift out very evenly to clear a cone on the end if I was coming in short. I also added a bigger wing.
The only change I have made to the car is to move the battery left. This is probably only a 2 ounce preload on the left. One problem remains that may clear up when I change to the oval chassis with more preload: On corner exit I can apply more throttle just as the car starts to straighten, but I am getting a tendency to oversteer (hook) here. Now this is normal pan car behaviour, but I think it can be tuned out some possibly with different caster settings on left and right side. I have about 4 degrees on both sides now. If you have corrected this with caster or otherwise Please Advise me. I am getting about a 7 second lap time on a relatively short 165-170 foot race line. I still think 6 cell stock would be the way to go as my 6 cell 3.5 was not a bit uncomfortable and had good throttle control. I say my problem may clear up with the oval chassis, because with 5 ounce preload on the left there may be some torque steer to the right to help me out on corner exit

John.
John it sounds like your car is over steering . the perfect scenario would be to hold the throttle wide open all the way thru the corners and not let up.
I a perfect day I can do this on a flat short track.

if your lose or scrub speed then there are more adjustments to be made.
You can go to harder springs and increase the caster , 4 degrees is to steep for oval. also longer travel suspensions as used on all the new oval cars help. it raises the top arm during compressions and improves the angel of the axle and tire to the track. also rear tweek is very important. I believe that everything is opposite because more left tweek can increase pressure to the right front tire. The best chassis for oval is the narrow chassis with an stock car oval body with a large wing mounted to the rear of the trunk.
tires are also important. I use pinks all around. or combination of pinks purples or greens etc.

The best bet is to find and local friendly oval racer than can help you with the set up.

oval pan car technology has become very technical over the last couple of years and the cars have become very specialized (espensive)

btw have you checked out the new CRC 1/10 oval car. it looks like an improved Pantoura. this may be a good base for a velodrome car.

yours
Wayne
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:01 PM   #1908
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Wayne-Thanks. I went down to 2 degrees on my next attempt (with different chassis though). Corner exit was much better. I have looked at the New CRC. It is a road car though.

Track Test 200 mm Oval car (3 -link custom rear suspension on a CRC chassis)
This was the first run of the oval. I still don't have the required batteries or motor as they just decided last night what they want to run. In the meantime I just put my on-road power (LiPo, 3.5 brushless) into the car. At first I had a bit of oversteer. I increased the rear wing and subtracted some wedge. Near perfect. I made a track bar(Panhard Bar) adjustment (just like Nascar). I moved the bar down .080 inch. In theory this should lower the rear roll center and increase rear cornering grip. In practice I noticed no change. It may not matter a whole lot how high this Panhard bar is from near the ground up to rear axle high. The 200 mm car with front high Panhard bar cornered very good much like the rear Panhard bar equipped wide pan car. It did not corner as hard as the wide pan car, but boy did I have forward traction. I pulled the front wheels three times coming out of the oval turn. I was hitting full throttle twice per lap now. By the end of the session the car was looking pretty quick and more dialed in. I was pleased with the chassis. I am a little overweight but so is my large LiPopack. Weight may come down with 4 cell and a fanless speed control. I am at 43 ounces body on; 5 ounce preload on the left side, 9 ounce preload on the back, body off.

I was running with Barry's 4cell RC10L4. He has a whole sheet of setup tricks from various sources that he agreed to share with me and you. I will try each one before I make a post. One that looked interesting and cheap is left rear wheel offset. You just put a spacer or two on the axle to increase the left rear wheel offset to change the oversteer understeer balance. Another tip is that he runs three pinks and one purple on the right front. I will have to try this later on. I willl have to note that Pink front tires do not wear very well on my road car even the inside sweeper tire, so this may add to expense.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-24-2008 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:48 AM   #1909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JevUK View Post
The fundemental flaw with having 2 links is that the distance between them changes as the pod pivots on the roll axis. This means the links are fighting each other and the only thing that allows the pod to pivot is either the slop in the ball joints of the flex of them and the whole chassis.


You really hit the nail on the head there.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:34 PM   #1910
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200 mm 3-link Oval Pan Car

I got some more runtime in on this car. Four other people drove it as well today. Mike D. had it really ripping around the oval. Full throttle on the 3.5 was easily attainable even on this very short oval. I had great traction. I did a couple of small test. I noticed the car was taking a polygon turn on the near side. It was going in short straight lines rather than turning round. I noticed this was not my hand on the radio wheel. I put on some big side dams like on the Big BRP oval wing. I just used double sided tape to attach them to my wing. There was no effect noted on this short oval. I took them back off. I thinking this is just some waviness in the track as it is very reproducible from lap to lap. I tinkered with camber until my fronts were wearing evenly.

The car has great forward traction. It is pulling the inside wheel just about every time I powered out of the corner. It is very Nascar short track like watching that splitter climb up on corner exit. Kind of cool.

I have depowered it now to a 6.5. I'll test it tomorrow. They decided 4 cell 13.5. . I'll give a report when I get the parts. There may be quite a bit less traction advantage to this suspension with the car depowered so, but even in stock traction gives you an edge.

One of my guest drivers had a huge wreck. I was worried a little about the strength of the rear body mounts. Well it gave way by delaminating the graphite, but not on the glue line. It was a huge wreck with lots of damage. I reinforced it in that direction with a little screw and glued it back together. Worked fine a short time later. You can see the screw in the picture.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-3-link-oval-car-rear-end-002.jpg  
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:41 PM   #1911
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NiMH news
Sadly, our new oval class is planning to use NiMH 4 cell packs instead of 3200 Roar Approved LiPo. For this reason I have hauled all my old NiMH equipment back out.
Battery building jig
Battery bars
Turbo thirty to discharge single cells
Novak Solder with liquid flux
Old but good Tekin Charger

The first two pictures shows my third attempt at a 4 cell pack in a stick pack arrangement that fits my car well. (Note to CRC that this type of four cell pack could also be grafted onto the side of the new CRC second generation 10th scale car to make a nice oval car. It would fit outside of the leading links on the old Pantoura Chassis and go all the way back or could be slid forward.) The finished pack is a Trinity matched pack with EP cells. Tests to come.

Deans Solder no longer available
So what is new and different. Well the first is that Deans solder is no longer available. It has superior wicking ability to get under battery bars. I always use a tiny drop of Zinc Chloride type of liquid flux on battery bars. In spite of this, with Novak Solder (no lead) the negative terminal of a couple of batteries failed to wick solder all the way to the outside edge. We are looking for a source of Much More Racing Silver solder which is similar to Deans with 1% more silver and the lead.

Stick Pack Like Shrink
I decided to put my pack in big shrink and cap the ends as I have a rather skimpy piece of graphite underneath with no proper battery slots. The latter would protect the cells in a crash better.

Wiring
You can also tell in these two pictures my plans for the wiring. Since this is going to be a power limited class then I can use all the little power saving tips I have learned. This includes short fat wires. I can easilly remove about 12 inches of wire from this setup. The speed control will be flat on the chassis in the right rear corner eventually. Wires will be short. There will be Deans plugs which gives you a system as good as hardwiring. They don't need to be cut in half for this installation, but it does give you some very neat plugs and shrink wrap if you do. These tricks will either overpower you or overheat the equipment in mod so I have not mentioned them in this thread.

Sad Story
So how popular are these four cell packs. Well two of the big stores in Houston had none. One of them said Huh?. For this reason I started with a Venom 6 cell 4200 stick pack which is all there was at hand. I made a pack in 2 configurations. The first had leads coming out of the middle The + and Minus leads were 1/4 inch apart. Normally it takes about a 1000 Volts to jump this kind of gap. I charged the pack up and when it was about 1/2 charged, an arc started between the two cells. It made arcing noise and smoke. It left a burn mark in the two cells. It did not come out of the solder colvered leads or parts of the cells. The arc heated one cell to 160 F. This is not good. I filled the space with hot melt glue. Recharged. The arc traveled around the glue and discharged the cells. OK this is plenty mysterious, It may have something to do with my antique Tekin Charger, but what I did is make the leads come out the end instead of the middle. This is standard stick pack use, and works well.
1 of the cells leaked electrolyte, drip drip drip while charging, two of the cells shorted and punctured and sprayed electrolyte steam. One almost drove us out of a large room from the smell which is caustic like Lithium Hydroxide. I don't think the 4200 cells withstood the soldering heat well in spite of my excellent equipment and years of experience. This pack was a total loss except to get my weight balance with 4200s which was 9 ounces rear bias and 9 ounces left bias.
Note also on these cells that the outside shrink is neccesary to make a stick pack. That little ring at the end of the can is hot.

John
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-trinity-4-cell-matched-pack.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-trinity-4-cell-matched-pack-shrink.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-venom-4-cell-stick-pack.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-oval-200-mm-car-003.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-20-2008 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:48 PM   #1912
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There is a new post on my 4 cell pack up above. I have since tested it on the Turbo thirty. It had 3661 mA-h capacity with 1.21 volt/cell or 4.85 for 4 cell or 7.26 equivalent for 6 cell at 20 A. I always find about 200 mA-h missing and then weekly deterioration in capacity after this.

Weight Transfer
I have a 9 ounce excess on the left with heavy 4200 cells. I wondered if this is too much. Carroll Smith gives a handy weight transfer formula in his book "Tune to win". Things you need to know include the cornering power in g's. Well I have measured this for a touring car on a short indoor asphalt track with good grip on a medium corner: 2.8 g's. I have also calculated with the following formula how many g's it takes to traction roll: 3.5 g's. I have traction rolled the touring car on our track. So how much does an oval car corner. My rough guess is at 3 g's, A little more than the touring car slightly less than a full size F1 car on ground effects.

Here is the formula

Weight transfer = cornering power(g's) x (car weight(lb) x Center of gravity height (in))/(track width (in))

So for my oval pan car this comes out
Weight transfer= 3 g's(2.68 lbx.875 in/7 in)
Weight transfer =1.00 lb
or in ounces = 16.0 ounces.

This tells me that more than 16 ounces on the left is too much. 9 ounces might be OK. The typical 5 ounces may just be from physical restrictions of the car layout or maybe not. Please tell me if you have done experiments with this.

Notice conspicuously absent are any mention of shock or springs. What affects weight transfer is height above the ground and cornering g's. Spring and shocks affect the rate of roll and tire compliance but not weight transfer to any great degree.

Balance car on side on ball point to find balance point.


.
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-balance-point.jpg  

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Old 02-21-2008, 12:56 PM   #1913
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Solder

Here is a good substitute for Deans that I have tested. It has 1% more silver at 4 % for slightly better conductivity and strength than Deans and 34% lead for good wicking ability. You do need a 900 degree tip for the best job on battery bars.

Here is the manufacturers link
http://teammuchmore.com/product_info.php?products_id=60

Here is a retail shop in Greece that has some for sale

http://eshop.rcring.com/index.asp?page=viewProduct&prodid=67

There may be places in the US that did not come up in my search. I'll check around some more.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:15 AM   #1914
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the CRC car is for on road but they have used hybred versions of the pantoura for Velo racing where you don't want the battery tray and batteries hanging off the left side of the car. The tray will contact the apron because of the steep angle of the track.

there are plenty of little mods to do make these cars turn and not scrubb speed. just like nascar! the simplest is to just buy one of the high end oval chassis such as Hiper Drive. etc. w/ offset pods, rear steer, slider trays to mention a few. they also use digital scales to get the balance. I just use the old seat of the pance and check for tire wear and coning.

I still drive my old Hyperdrive chassis. it is totally out of date but has been extensively modded and will stay with the expensive brands in the nastruck hand out class. took third the first time out.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:18 AM   #1915
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the CRC car is for on road but they have used hybred versions of the pantoura for Velo racing where you don't want the battery tray and batteries hanging off the left side of the car. The tray will contact the apron because of the steep angle of the track.

there are plenty of little mods to do make these 4 cell oval chassis turn and not scrubb speed. just like nascar! the simplest is to just buy one of the high end oval chassis such as Hiper Drive. etc. w/ offset pods, rear steer, slider trays to mention a few. they also use digital scales to get the balance. I just use the old seat of the pance and check for tire wear and coning.

I still drive my old Hyperdrive chassis. it is totally out of date but has been extensively modded and will stay with the expensive brands in the nastruck hand out class. took third the first time out. but have back burnered the project for now.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:18 AM   #1916
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double post sorrry

Last edited by nagatahawk; 02-22-2008 at 09:35 AM. Reason: double post
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:45 PM   #1917
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Wayne-Thanks for the post.

The solder was not available from Hong Kong. It was backordered.

I ran 4 cell HV 6.5 today. (2 pinion teeth up from 6 cell) I had made several changes to the chassis as well. I changed to 0 degree caster on the left as caster on this side should actually reduce steering. I had 11 ounce preload on the left instead of 5. I had a magenta left front instead of purple. I moved the speed control down to the chassis by removing one leg of my cross brace that supports the center link. I'm sorry I just don't get it; underpowering the 1/10 scale car so much with 4 cell. I guess I'll get used to it.

I had too much steering late in the corner. I changed the caster on the left side back to 2. (originally it was at 4 for road use, then 0 for this test). I increased the left side spring one weight to red. Red is on the right as well.

I noticed that the left rear tire was better behaved in the corners now. It was hopping or skipping a little bit before just in the corners. With this extra preload it is more planted. The car is handling very well.

I think when we change to the 13.5 it will indeed become a rolling war or like Wayne said who can scrub the less speed in the corners. Too this effect I put the purple back on the front left. I am getting very close to my road course settings now on the front. I am going to measure the rears to see if moving weight left evened the wear. I'll even give those Magentas a try on the rear. They should roll quite a bit better than pink.

I had some rear steer in the car to turn left. I removed it as it was causing the car not to drive straight on the straights. I was not reaching the curbing as a result. I removed it. Maybe I should rear steer the other way.
John

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Old 02-23-2008, 04:03 PM   #1918
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I ran the oval against Mike D's Custom Works Slider Car today. We are not perfectly matched on motor yet. The closest was my 6.5 and his 7.5. Later he depowered to the EBX 13.5 from Novak. The first gear choice was full throttle all the way around. Fortunately I had some big pinions and we got to about 35 tooth 64 pitch pinion and the motor was able to be throttled a bit.

My car on first run had extremely good corner entry and no ill traits to speak of. On second run I put on Magenta rears. On second or third lap I spun the rear out late in a corner. I ran the rest of the pack, but needed to hold a little less throttle in the turn. Note that this is only 4 cell 6.5. Our road cars have much more power. The outside rear tires is wearing a little more than the inside. This is normal, I guess, even with a huge 11 ounce preload on the left from heavy 4600 mA-h batts. The car is at 44.5 ounces with the heavy batts. It was a couple of ounces lighter with a 4900 mA-h Lipo. I have camber set to wear the fronts evenly, a little negative on the right and a little positive on the left. 2 degrees caster both sides, red Windtunnel Racing (Murdock RC). I was running 1-2 mm ride height on the pod and about 5 mm on the chassis today. The course is fairly smooth. No new wear or scratches on the bottom noted.

Mike had some trouble with the McAllister Nascar COT trim line being too high. He likes a little more rake in the body. Be carefull not to use the cut lines on the side until you have the body mounted. There is enough material below the line to rake the body.

Wayne Do you get your rears to wear evenly.

I went back to two purples on front and the car behaves better.

I will have my Novak EBX 13.5 to run in it in a few days. Then we will have matched power and will be better able to evaluate the chassis and drivers.

lots of action and fun in 5 minutes.

John
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Old 02-24-2008, 04:45 PM   #1919
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200 mm oval
We had 6 guys out for oval practice today. I still need to depower to a 13.5. That Novak EBX motor should be in later in the week. In the meantime my car was really hooked up. Traction was super late in the day. My car was ripping around the short oval.

Things that are new:

I misidentified STAGGER in a previous post. This is using different diameter tires left and right. For asphalt a larger tire is reccommended on the inside tires. This helps the car steer out on corner exit.

Wheel offset
I did try increasing the offset of the left rear to get the car to accelerate out to the boards on corner exit. I did not suceeed completely. (I talked to a guy who races a full size car on the oval and he offsets the right rear out to cure this same problem.) I have now consulted two additional sources of oval setup and it appears that I made the right choice. In addition the wheel on the opposite corner can be moved out to gain additional effect. For me I moved the left rear out, right front in to get better acceleration out to the boards on corner exit. You can only do this at the front if you have the long in line axles with the little plastic spacer. The spacer can be in or outside the wheel. My right rear is fixed by the need of the spur gear not to rub my shock. For this reason I made my additional move at the front.

Tire Wear
My tires are wearing pretty evenly now left vs right. Barry, an old hand on the oval, said to look at the tire dust up on your body to help determine this as well. your dust should be more or less even left vs right. I am not sure we will get any tire dust (marbles)with a 13.5 but I was with this 6.5. Gearing was pretty critical with this 4 cell pack. The 6.5 liked am 87/19 with a well worn used up tire. I tried 22 teeth and 18 teeth.

Preload
Barry also indicated a 10.5 ounce preload left is a good starting point. I am at 11 ounces this is good. The car is turning really hard and smooth. A second source says to start at 12 ounces plus or minus 1 ounce. I am in the ball park.

My battery shelf was sheared off. I put in a couple of screws. Then the center antenna mount broke in half. I used tape. I had a new antenna mount coming as it was cracked. Tape worked good.

My car is a pig with this 4600 4 cell battery. It weighs 2 ounces more than with my 4900 mA-h LiPo. It handles good though. I am hoping extra voltage will help push this extra weight. 44 ounces.

John

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Old 02-26-2008, 10:03 PM   #1920
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Short Wiring For Super Stock

The pics show two different wiring attempts in the 200 mm Oval Pan car. On the left I have removed 11 inches and 12 grams of wire to run Super Stock 4 cell (4 cell 13.5 EX motor). On the right is a good setup for mod. Plenty of wire. The oval guys have decided to run any speed control. Based on "on Resistance" then you should put in a GTB 4cell unit with spectrum upgrade or the full size GTB. Both have the same on resistance, but the 4 cell unit will be lighter by .3 ounces. The LRP TC edition is hard to find specs on but they are similar to the GTB when translated. (They give a voltage drop and current rather than a resistance for the Sphere comp but not the TC edition. Use E=iR to tranlate. Voltage = current x resistance)

I used Novak solder. This particular tube of it has very poor wicking ability. I used paste flux to improve this.

I left a good springy curl of wire whose center is near the center of the car going to the motor. This provides easy pod rotation. It is critical not to impede this. An easy up and down motion is also needed so as not to add to spring rate too much. This is less important.

soldering to the speed control is tricky these days with the poor solder available. Only attempt it with the best soldering equipment.

I should have a 13.5 motor soon. We may allow a sintered rotor for durability.

The speed control is servo taped to a lightweight aluminum angle that is screwed and servo taped to the last hole in the chassis.

so how much is this extra voltage worth. Well it's roughly the difference between the $45 pack and the $70 pack.

John
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-super-stock-wiring.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-trinity-4-cell-matched-pack-shrink.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-29-2008 at 12:11 AM.
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