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Old 10-01-2007, 11:45 AM   #1831
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John

You are so right dude, a different suspension keeping the car simple is the way, but I have really looked in the web and there is nobody making something like this, except for a extrange prototype posted somewhere in this thread that also had front brakes.

I agree with you but hopefully some company guy realizes this problem before TC starts dropping sales, almost sure thats going to happen.
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Old 10-02-2007, 05:50 PM   #1832
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Pepecueva-Thanks for the posts.

Track Test
Medium Grip, 120F track temp.

RC10L2 vs Prototype

I was able to run both cars today. Finally. The RC10L2 started life as an oval car. I widened the front with a couple narrow extensions to 212 mm. I widened the rear with a long axle and wide hubs but only to 220 mm which is the stock width on some RC10L2 road cars. I put in a Novak 4.5R motor geared 6.0. This had been clocked previously in my pan car at 53 mph so it had this potential.

First I ran my car a couple of packs to clean the dust off the pan car line. Some gas cars had been running but don't quite take the same line I do. On the second pack I had good medium traction and was running fast laps. Speed on the straight measured by radar was 53 mph. This runs a little higher during a race as traction will build up.

I ran the RC10L2 and achieved 51 mph. I believe that TallyRC's Max 10 would have achieved this same speed today as the new sealer has provided a bit more traction and leveled the straight a bit. Keeping the tires planted is still the problem that limits speed on this straight. When a single rear wheel gets a bump there is very little restoring force to bring that wheel back down with the typical stock pan car. You basically have to wait for gravity to bring the wheel down. Additionally forward traction on each of the short straights is reduced over the prototype. There is no help from antisquat.

The RC10L2 which has a viscous disk rear end had the best steering traction of any of the pan cars systems I have tried. Here is a list

Stock Pantoura with side dampener tubes. These quickly locked up with grit and actually popped off the balls after only a few laps.

Stock Pantoura and Wide Pantoura with a 3 shock setup. I got good reliable performance this way, but not as much steering as I could use. I also used mini shocks on the side with little change.

Now the viscous disk rear end dry. This gave me the best steering.

I like the narrow oval chassis very much in the corners. It suits a LiPo stick pack perfectly. The tape slots are nice. The degree of flex of the narrow chassis is perfect for a wide pan.

Saturday I will run the car again. I may put some goo on the disk this time to mute some steering. That may or may not be the right thing to do. I'll see.
John
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-viscous-disk.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-02-2007 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 10-02-2007, 10:37 PM   #1833
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John, try removing the middle screw on the rear of the Tbar.
It will improve stability. It will also take away a little steering.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:35 PM   #1834
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Pro Ten Holland-Thanks.

A little more detail on the last test session. About half way through the last pack the car got real squirrelly as if something had come loose. I stopped the session. It turns out I had not tightened the front T-bar screw nor had I installed tweak screws. Anyway the huge turn in is probably explained by this screw wobbling back and forth and creating some rear steer action. Someone should do some testing here.

I corrected this problem and also changed the front springs to purple. Steering was now normal to a little poor. I changed the front springs to white progressives and the car had good balance now.

I had a good 20 minute running session with the car today. I was going to evaluate the viscous disk some more. I ran it dry for half a pack (10 minutes today) then put on Mugen 7000 Diff lube on the disk top and bottom this is what I noticed. The car had more turn in than before. It felt very good on turn in. The car also had more rear stabillity and I could reach my full throttle points on the short straights. This had eluded me with this car previously. So this is definitely a help. Now to rate the stock pan cars that I have driven as much as I am able.

This car had the best corner turn in. (Viscous disk T plate)
The wide pantoura or narrow pantoura (center pivot link cars)
with a 3 shock setup had the best traction through the bumps.
All the t-plate cars tended to patter on the bumps with traction alternating from one side to the other, never achieving full grip. You can hear this when you practice alone and also see this from experience. You can see this with low radar numbers.
This viscous disk performed better in dirty conditions than tubes because they cannot lockup like the tubes did on my car outdoors.
Small side shocks work as well as big side shocks.
The center shock takes a real beating on a bumpy track and needs to be large. You can tell when you examine the fluid. It is always black and nasty.

Well I have now tested quite a few different designs. There is definitely a winner, but it is not in production so you have your pick on one of these other designs. The better the traction on the track the faster these cars are. When traction is poor they are a handfull.
John
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:56 PM   #1835
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LRP Spere Comp TC Edition
I have been running this speed control in the wide pan car for a while now. No more thermal shutdowns at the end of the run. I had some time today to test its companion the X11 3.5 motor. This motor differs from Previous LRP motors by coming with a large diameter sintered magnet rotor. Kv is about 9800 compared to 10,500 for the Novak 3.5R that I have been running with the smaller sintered rotor.


I geared the LRP motor first 1 tooth up over what I gear the Novak, two teeth up
then in between. It was best in between at 6.69 (87/13) with a 2.4 inch tire. This motor feels a lot like a Novak 4.5R with a small rotor in the pan car. There is more punch out of the corner. If it is slippery you end up feathering the throttle more. I don't reach my full throttle points on the short straights with it, too much punch causes loss of traction. Top speed is slightly less than the Novak 3.5R. This happens in the last third of the straight where the Novak continues to gain a little speed. The LRP 3.5 is a killer in the touring car, but I prefer the Novak 3.5R with small rotor in the pan car.

Velocity Series has gone light
I noted earlier that it looked like I had two different models of the 3.5R Novak Motor. A powerfull one that you could hear strong electrical induction noise on the straight (imagine the noise coming from a stalled alternating current motor with saturated windings or a larger motor on the starting coil) and gave great top speed. And then a softer one that I called the late model with suspected smaller wire. I was lucky later to get a remanufactured stronger one (my strong one fried). Well now Novak offers the strong and softer models for each of their powerfull motors in their lineup. The only difference is the softer one has smaller wire. Who would have thought.

The LRP X11 3.5 gives a very slightly bit less of that wonderful noise and top speed in the pan car.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-25-2007 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:58 AM   #1836
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Here is an interesting new Hatzenbach pan car design for the rear that is in prodution, I believe. The advantages are a very low rear roll center or pivot point. If you have a driving report from the car please give it to us. I have studied the schematic a little and think it might have a little rear steer that I talked about previously. I would have to hold one to be sure.

http://www.moosi-masters.de/forum/files/hatzenbach_a12_manual_978.pdf

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Old 11-17-2007, 01:31 AM   #1837
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I race against 10th scale Hatzenbachs or a few years now.
I was also handed the transmitter of one every once in a while.
The car has massive rear traction. They have used every trick in the book to bring steering into the car (and succeeded).

However, the car's handling is on a par with a good stock Associated L2 (and my X10 for that matter).

The guy behind Hatzenbach is working on a refined version of the car that is ready for Lipo batteries.
See here:
http://www.moosi-masters.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1338

He's just about ready, just waiting for some parts to come in.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:39 AM   #1838
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Mathijs-Thanks for the report. The new prototype has an interesting fully dampened front end. It looks like the lower A-arms are now replaced by graphite plates that pivot fore and aft rather than side to side like normal A-arms. This allows him to put damping very low in the car and to the back. If you get one in your hands again. Pivot the rear pod by hand on the cars long axis (I expect it to be a little tight) and also see if it pivots a little on the pods vertical axis (This is what would give it some rear steer)
John
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-hazenblat-prototyp2-2-front-end.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-17-2007 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:40 AM   #1839
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I think so as well. It looks like the tire rod is just too short on the prototype and will eventually wear a tie rod that is a little longer.

I made this post after Primus's post below. Strange.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:43 AM   #1840
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Looks cool.

The front left Turnbuckle looks as though its bent? or the ball cup isn't threaded on properly
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Old 11-18-2007, 03:10 AM   #1841
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The turnbuckle is bent indeed.
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:57 AM   #1842
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Hey John, what do you make of the new 1/12 Speedmerchant Rev %'s new front suspension and how it will work in 1/10 Pan

http://www.12thscale.info/index.php?...id=37&Itemid=1
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Old 11-18-2007, 08:39 AM   #1843
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That suspension looks like it might be classified partially as a flexure type suspension which I have discussed here previously. It does have a kingpin spring though and the graphite is thick so it is mostly like the original suspension. It lacks hydraulic damping that I would prefer. On 1/10 scale, it would require that you manufacture a little bit wider graphite spring plate. Thanks for the link.

I have thought of a simple mod that might increase rear traction and prevent the pattering I find with center pivot or T-bar cars that cause them to loose traction later in the straight. I would put two "center shocks" one on each side and see if this does not return the wheels back to ground better from a bump on one side. The side shocks or dampers could then probably be eliminated.
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:41 PM   #1844
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Well some things have changed since I started this thread back in 2006.

Brushless speed controls have improved. I have been running the LRP TC edition in my Associated TC5 touring car for 6 months without a speed control failure or thermal shutdown. This is indeed good news. I have had two motors have complete rotor failures. One blew up early on (I tested the repair recently and it was not running normally. There must have been other damge caused to the sensors that was not corrected. A second rotor separated completely from the shaft without blowing up after 50 very good cycles. Now 50 good cycles between service is nice. It would be good to have three of these motors in order to always have one in hand. The others would be in service. Anyway motor durabillity performance in TC or Wide pan is now a tie. No durability advantage either way in most climates. The pan draws 8 fewer amps so in the hottest climates there may be an edge tp the pan. Pan (38 amps, TC 45 amps average).

Touring Cars have improved in durability.
They made the arms, caster blocks and hubs on the TC5 out of a softer material that does not break as much. Subtle improvments in the inner A-arm hinge pivot mounts over which I spent a lot of time on the pan car has improved the survivability of the arms and pins. Durability to the wide pan as far as breakage is now a tie inspite of the Wide pans Robust front and rear end. There is more wear to the front end of a locked diff TC car to more than make a Wide pan more durable overall though.

Performance & weight
It was easy to bring my TC5 down to 43 ounces. It is ballistic at this weight. At this light weight the touring car is every bit the equal and maybe even .5 seconds faster than a stock wide pan on my track. The fastest I have run a stock chassied wide pan with 3.5R motor is low 19's on sugar. The TC5 has been in the low 18's (during the second day of Nitro Nationals warmup). Now my highly modified wide pan is still faster and has run in the high 17's and may run faster still with recent changes. TC top speed is about 52 mph on my track now. This is only 1 mph under my pan car, but with the same motor my pan may improve.

Track Surface
Our Road racing club has taken the initiave to buy a $500 spraying machine to apply sugar water to the track. Permission to apply the sugar water has been obtained as well. This is a good time to bring my wide pan back to life.


FMADirect.com Revolution Pro Battery
I purchased a short servo to allow me to fit the very fine FMA direct Revolution LiPo batteries that I discovered. These are the best yet. Best voltage, lowest Deterioration rate, but a tad long. I bought the short servo to give me about 12 mm more length. The pan car and touring car will weigh approximately the same now at about 44 ounces. The Pan car will have a new LRP X11 3.5 motor and an LRP speed control that has been sent back just for checking. I think it was OK, the motor was having a problem. Anyway I am happy to be back on this thread occasionally. I will report results as I get them.

This servo is an aileron servo and has a funny wedge shape. There might be a better pick for this application.

John
Attached Thumbnails
Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-futaba-short-servo-005-resized.jpg   Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-fma-direct-revolution-lipo.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 01-14-2008 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:08 AM   #1845
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Hi John, nice to see your projects are still ongoing.

How come you didn't go for a Futaba s9550 or even better a KO 2413?

Something I wanted to pick on that you talk about roll center with that german custom chassis.

From my past experience runinng pro 10 my gut feeling is that the roll center is so low it is below the cog . The only reason I can see that the cars are drivable in this state is the characteristics of foam tyres. But I'm not sure that these foam tyres would still not work better with a higher roll center.

Excuse me if this has already been said but have you worked out the roll center of your car?

I know you fit the esc high so that will give you extra roll, but that also increases cog. Is it not better to keep cog as low as physicaly possible but raise the roll center of the susupension?

My opinion of pan car deisgn is that manufacture do not think outside of the bubble unlike youself john. I've never understood why no company has produced oil damped front suspension with current technology so good for making small parts.

Last edited by JevUK; 01-15-2008 at 08:28 AM.
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