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Old 07-18-2007, 04:32 PM   #1651
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Yesterday I took some time and hit the track- cleaned it a bit and took care of a couple other issues, as took a few laps. My good friend Alfonso, one of the best TC drivers in town, has been testing with a Tamiya 103GT 1/10th direct drive pan car/ touring car/ F1? He finnaly got it set up, and ran Gas TC tires front and rear, w/ Lipo and Novak 3.5R motor...wow...it was fast and show crisp handling. I sparred with him and my TC was faster on the straits, and comming out of corners...the Tamiya 103GT had at least the same amount of corner speed, but was better turning in and scooting thru corners...the TC was faster and better over all, as per the bottom line results, but I'm very impressed at what that $130 car did. Tire wear was amazingly low, for the high speeds and run times- 10 minutes straight per pack. Its very tough, and very easy to work on. Its got lots of hop-ups and plenty of parts available, and they are sooooooo cheap! Hopefully my pan car can work like that 103GT and even better...awaiting some new tires and then back to the track.
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Old 07-18-2007, 04:38 PM   #1652
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I do know that when we ran 6-cell stock, we were running very comparable times to 6-cell TC Pro-Mod (Barry, Brian, et al at SoCal) - there was no way we could run 6-cell mod at SoCal. . .course was WAAAY too small. We tried 6-cell 19T and we were never able to get on it. . .just too fast for too small a track.

When we went out-doors to big tracks (like Revelation Raceway in Corona, CA) we were able to let things hang out. At the 2001 Norrca Nats in Las Vegas, we were clocked at around 70mph at the end of the straight running 10x2 6-cells - 5 minute heats. This had a sweeper, straight, sweeper - and we went through 1 front left tire per heat (all we had was greens and blues. . .) - nothing was even near us (this was only 1/10th scale)

At Rev, we were possibly a bit faster since the straight was longer and the track was smoother and had less wear. While the traction was high, Mark Anton was able to get within a few tenths of the faster 1/8th scale guys, consistently, and the rest of us were able to be a few tenths off that.

NOTHING should out accelerate a 1/10th Pan except for a 1/12th Pan - less weight means faster acceleration every time (provided equal power and equal traction, of course) - and faster acceleration means a higher top end when given limited space - as in on a track. Brushless or Brushed and 6-Cell or LiPo - we should out accelerate them. Given our high-DF bodies and front-free wheeling, we should out-maneuver them as well.

ahhh me lovey the GTP Pan Car. . .
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Old 07-18-2007, 06:39 PM   #1653
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Mathijs-The last time I compared LiPo to NiMH was in a touring car. I used a 3200 mA-h Scorpion (Kokam LiPo). This is the type that had good voltage unlike the Orion LiPo's. In stock (27 turn) ballasted to the same weight, the LiPo was faster for about half the run and then the two were about even. When not ballasted the Lipo was the clear winner.

In mod the LiPos have lower internal resistance. They seem always faster than NiMH to me. They have more punch. I see that Adrian M has changed his opinion on this, but maybe it's from using just Orion LiPo's. The Max Amps and ThunderPower Packs perform very similar to my Original Scorpion Pack quite a bit better than the Orion pack I tested. The Lipos stay relatively new, or in racing shape, for twice the runs of NiMH at least so the price is not so different.

I see that the next big development in batteries may be the Li Ion Nanophosphate battery made by 123 systems. It is sure to take over the power tool industry. 5 minute charge times. Decade long life. The voltage is not a good multiple to replace 6 Ni MH, so I don't think its going to creep into the RC industry very fast. I would change to LiPo's If I were you guys. These Li Ion Nanophosphate batteries would be a good replacement for 5 cell NiMH.

More speed runs this weekend weather permitting. I will just note that the 1/10 Nitros max at 52 mph on our track and the 1/8 scales at 54 mph. I catch the spec class 1/8 scales on the straight now. This caused a mass exodus to open 1/8 scale. 53 mph is not that slow. If I was able to make my touring car go 53 it would only do it about 4-5 laps so what good is that. I do still have one collecting dust. I have only done one speed run, where I changed the car at all from the track setup and the conditions were poor. There may be improvement.

The wide pan has probably 15-20 % more frontal area than a narrow pan. This gives you 15-20 percent more air drag. That is mostly what you fight at speed is air drag. Nick could probably calculate the penalty in mph. Notice his car is narrow.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 08-06-2007 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:26 PM   #1654
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Well it looks like Nick has permission to use Houston Raceway Park on Friday for a speed run. 1/4 mile dragstrip. Weather permitting. This is where the big dogs race the powerfull stuff. I have run a fullsize car there myself. It should be fun.

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Old 07-19-2007, 02:52 AM   #1655
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OK John, thanks for the good advice!
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:31 AM   #1656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
NOTHING should out accelerate a 1/10th Pan except for a 1/12th Pan - less weight means faster acceleration every time (provided equal power and equal traction, of course) - and faster acceleration means a higher top end when given limited space - as in on a track. Brushless or Brushed and 6-Cell or LiPo - we should out accelerate them. Given our high-DF bodies and front-free wheeling, we should out-maneuver them as well.
Thatīs not completely true for all situations. It depends on traction and trackdesign. Last weekend we had a race where I did race against 1/10th Pan cars. My car was a HPI Super Sport 4WD what is larger than the usual TC and using 1.4" wide tires, weight is 50% higher than pans. Body is a Toyota GT1 so similar to pans.
The track was medium size with some slower corners as well. Laptimes were depending on tracktemp, in the morning I was clearly faster than the pans during the day we were similar and at late afternoon the pans were a little faster as my rubber tires overheated at the very hot track. I was not using traction compound and if I have had the chance running foams (rules forbid this with 4WD here) the pans would not have any chance there.
If the track had been large and open as the nitro tracks, this had been a different story.
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Old 07-19-2007, 10:18 AM   #1657
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ROFL V12 - we were talking about 1/10th scale and you bring out your Super10, which allows a larger engine, wider cross-section, etc. That car is closer to an Outlaw 1/10th, which could compete with us - but then it's a High DF body mated to a larger motor.

Read my post again and I was directly comparing to 1/10th scale (since that was the conversation) - within 1/10th scale, nothing should out-accelerate us or out maneuver us. (true, I did mention 1/12th. . . ) - larger car, larger motor, sure. 1/8th beat us all the time. Outlaw would keep up (and I include Super10 with those) and it was about 50/50 whether it was us or them.
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:12 PM   #1658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
NOTHING should out accelerate a 1/10th Pan except for a 1/12th Pan - less weight means faster acceleration every time (provided equal power and equal traction, of course) - and faster acceleration means a higher top end when given limited space - as in on a track. Brushless or Brushed and 6-Cell or LiPo - we should out accelerate them. Given our high-DF bodies and front-free wheeling, we should out-maneuver them as well
In my findings, a 4X4 Electric TC, especially w/ spool up front, will pull harder and faster out of corners than 1/10 pan cars, assuming both are using Lipo packs, or 6 cell packs. Pan cars can go as fast down the straights or even faster(I have yet to personally witness this), but where the pan car shines is with much better corner speeds and handling than TC, assuming theres good traction.

A nitro TC is slower pulling out of the corners compared to an Electric mod TC, and so a pan car will possibly be equal to or a bit faster pulling out/accelerating out of corners...this is according to what I have seen and tested for months, driving against both sponsored Kyosho and Serpent drivers, and very good mod TC drivers...but, again, this is what I have personally experienced, and others can have varying results.
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Old 07-19-2007, 10:50 PM   #1659
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Speed Run Prep.
New Batts in the Radio
Old large Spectrum Receiver with long antenna
new diffusers just in front of the front wheels a la Toyota Eagle MKIII linked to above.
New small winglets at the front corners a la Toyota Eagel MKIII.
I installed the RPM front bumper with a flat piece of lexan underneath that seals the gap and forms the front diffusers.
Hopefully it won't rain.
John
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:00 AM   #1660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
ROFL V12 - we were talking about 1/10th scale and you bring out your Super10, which allows a larger engine, wider cross-section, etc. That car is closer to an Outlaw 1/10th, which could compete with us - but then it's a High DF body mated to a larger motor.

Read my post again and I was directly comparing to 1/10th scale (since that was the conversation) - within 1/10th scale, nothing should out-accelerate us or out maneuver us. (true, I did mention 1/12th. . . ) - larger car, larger motor, sure. 1/8th beat us all the time. Outlaw would keep up (and I include Super10 with those) and it was about 50/50 whether it was us or them.
Talking about 1/10 scale according to the specific rules (in our country) the Super Sport car is 1/10 also as a TC or a pan car. If you look at the real dimensions, leave the TC aside, the Super Sport is very similar to a pan car, but I just talk on the wide pan car version nobody is running a narrow pan here. Regarding wide dimensions the Super Sport Iīm running is about 220mm the wide pan is in the 220-235mm range. For tires the pan has much wider rear tires front is similar. Motors are exactly the same as the rules are the same for all electric classes, batteries are 6 cell for both. So no advantage here for the Super Sport, beside 4WD. Usually the Super Sport is not running in the pan class, this was just at that race.

Reading your post you talked about out accelerate and this is what I was referring to (and laptime), not to out maneuver. Regarding topspeed the pan will always be better here. But again at that track the pans were not that faster on the straight and they lacked acceleration as traction was not good enough. We donīt sugarwater any track.
But this was not a typical pan car track from layout. Size was something I would compare with Revelation raceway at the 1996 worlds, big tracks are about double the size here where the pans really shine (if tractions allows).
Donīt get me wrong, I donīt want bashing the pans. This was my favourite class ever but currently Iīm running something different as there are too few pan races here.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:16 AM   #1661
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ahh when you were talking "super" i thought you meant nitro.. here the only super we really see is the hpi super nitro rs4 and the 235 nirto's not many if any electric ones.. i've never seen one in person bt i know they exist.. that explains a lot.. i'm sure 4wd wil out accelarate pans anywhee traction is poor..
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:29 AM   #1662
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Itīs the RS4 Super Sport what shares the same bodies, tires and suspension as the Super Nitro. HPI donīt make them anymore but you can still find pictures on their website. Because of the big tires you have very good traction and these last very long in compare to usual TC tires. Running BL motors with these cars is a lot of fun. The Toyota GT 1 body is what everybody runs as itīs the fastest but itīs not that tricked out as the pancar bodies.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:43 PM   #1663
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my buddy ran the nitro version in our club races for ever. you simply couldn't drive the car too hard with all the grip it had...
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Old 07-21-2007, 01:57 AM   #1664
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Main difference between nitro and electric version is the chassis. The nitro uses a stiff aluminium chassis where the electric uses a very soft GRP chassis what makes the car understeer a lot. You have to use some unusual setup here, most times we are running harder springs in the rear than in the front.
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Old 07-21-2007, 07:26 PM   #1665
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Powell PRC Max 10 Revised Upper Pod Plate

I received the revised plate today. Nice. Thanks Doug. Here is a pic. You are welcome to use this picture on your Web Site. (To download it right click on the thumbnail and select save as. Or I can resize it for you.) I have a Novak 3.5R mounted for testing as soon as it quits raining. This upper pod plate will have adequate clearance to run any of the brushless motors I have tried including, Novak, Trinity, and Mamba. The LRP 3.5 is backordered still. Note that there are an additional set of side shock holes aft of the holes the shocks are mounted in.


The next test will probably be on a sealed track. I'll have to see. The track is being heated with rosebud heaters and rolled out to help smooth some of the bumps before resealing.

John
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Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.-powell-wide-rear-pod-top-plate-redesigned-resized004.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 07-21-2007 at 08:44 PM.
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