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Old 08-03-2006, 09:36 AM   #91
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The miniscule difference in voltage for the LiPo's is not where the power advantage comes in. It's in the discharge curve. Although a NiMH pack may peak higher, it drops off quickly and levels off on discharge. The LiPo has a nearly perfectly flat discharge until it reaches a certain point. That point is WELL past the 5 minute mark so for the entire race, your car will have just as much punch as it did at the start.

So with this new pack, will I not have to cut up the right rear bulkhead of my T2 to get it to fit?

Hurry up and get it released already...
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:44 AM   #92
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The 7.4V thing is an issue. But the reality is that even with equal nominal voltage, the LiPo will perform better. It is not possible to equalize them. Perhaps allowing them in stock is not the right thing at this time, but why not let them run in modified first, and see how it goes.

Allowing LiPos could immediately affect the 50 or so companies that brand matched batteries, and the countless drivers sponsored by these companies that may or may not continue to exist. There is strong resistance to LiPo for this reason. Some of this resistance is coming in the form of trying to change electric racing rules to allow 4 or 5 cells, rather than 6. This would virtually eliminate LiPo as an option.

We are working with the appropriate parties to try to get LiPo legalized in some form to at least get the ball rolling. Consumers who want to race with LiPo really need to press their tracks or clubs to allow them. They will do what their customers want. Also make sure that you take the time and express your concerns (to ROAR, your local track, etc.) about changes to the 6-cell NiMh format. If you want to race with LiPo, you must be sure that they are legalized before someone decides to go to a four or five cell format.

As for chassis balancing issues, we have done some basic research. Everyone's electronic equipment is different, and the size and amount of wire, use of fans etc, all affect weight, but my basic set-up (Hara ESC, Airtronics servo, mod motor, Airtronics 3CH receiver) weighs about 10 ounces.

A built IB pack weighs 14.5 ounces. So we have a 4.5 ounce different left to right. The Carbon Lipo weighs 6.8 ounces for a difference of 3.2 ounces. Based on these calculations (which may differe from user to user), a carbon Lipo will offer better balance than an IB4200.
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:45 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
I think the leason here is do not get hacked or hack.
And don't leave it on your car seat. :-D

Seriously, though, there's a lot of negativity surrounding the safety of LiPo, and rightfully so, because they can be dangerous when handled improperly. It really does seem like the cells Kokam developed for Orion are at least as safe as NiMH though. Batteries are inherently dangerous, but at least with LiPo, they're actively working to make them smarter and safer. You don't see that with NiMH, and those aren't exactly excluded from all safety concerns.

I'm happy to see the hard case. My cells get chewed up by the CF on my chassis, and eventually expose the casing of the battery. Hopefully, the hard shell on the Orion packs will eliminate the concern of shorting them out on a chassis.
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:52 AM   #94
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When I finally got tired of the maintenance, I sold my two chargers, six battery packs, dischargers, lathe, and speed control. I bought a brand new sphere comp, 3 star motor, Ice charger, and Orion 4800 LiPo, and had some money left over. Oh yeah, and lots of extra time too. I really don't see what is not to like about this technology.

If somebody goes out and buys the latest and greatest stock motor and beats everyone, the rest of the competition will buy one too. What makes brushless stock all that different? The 1952 ROAR rulebook states that only rubber bands with no more than 200 turns may power race vehicles. I had bags and bags of rubber bands that I had to get rid of when they changed the rules to allow electric motors. I lobbied for motors wound with burnable filaments as windings so they would lose power quickly and stop moving like the rubber bands. Racing was so much more fun back then.
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Old 08-03-2006, 10:14 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
...
Allowing LiPos could immediately affect the 50 or so companies that brand matched batteries, and the countless drivers sponsored by these companies that may or may not continue to exist. There is strong resistance to LiPo for this reason. Some of this resistance is coming in the form of trying to change electric racing rules to allow 4 or 5 cells, rather than 6. This would virtually eliminate LiPo as an option.
...
If the power tool manufacturers will change to LiPo, then it makes no sense to argue about 4/5 cell NiMH... We will have two choices 1 or 2 cell LiPo... nobody will make Sub-C cells just for us RC freaks...
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Old 08-03-2006, 10:34 AM   #96
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Surely we can run upgradeed versions of the 6V regulators used in RX packs to bring the Lipo in line with 5-cell touring (if that ever becomes the class)?

PS there will always be a place for sub-C in RC racing until foolproof Lipo packs can be bought for under 20 (or under 10), it's 10 sub-C packs that power most first-time racers.
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Old 08-03-2006, 10:52 AM   #97
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It's a nice option for TC's, but what about 1/12th's?
If LiPo's will be aloud, companies are going to concentrate on that instead of NiMh's, that's for sure.
Running with 7.4V (and maybe even a brushless motor) is way too much for an 1/12th. The electronics will be cheaper, but you have to buy new parts over and over again because it's too fast and uncontrolable!
And let's not forget the most important part, the cells don't even fit in a 1/12th.
If LiPo's will be legalized (which isn't that far away), than maybe 1/12th's should start running with 3.6V LiPo's, but that's a huge step backwards (from 4.8V). To be honest, I don't think this development is a good one for the 1/12th class...
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:05 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Allowing LiPos could immediately affect the 50 or so companies that brand matched batteries, and the countless drivers sponsored by these companies that may or may not continue to exist. There is strong resistance to LiPo for this reason. Some of this resistance is coming in the form of trying to change electric racing rules to allow 4 or 5 cells, rather than 6. This would virtually eliminate LiPo as an option.
With all due respect to those companies for all the entertainment and competition they've provided us, I personally say tough cookies.

Not one of those drivers would have trouble getting sponsored by someone else if they're good. If anything sometimes I wonder if there isn't a little "inappropriate" spreading of FUD among people directly tied to all those companies (and their ongoing profitability) going on. I don't want to sound like some conspiracy theorist or something don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't doubt that it happens.

People often fear change, especially anyone for whom it might mean the obselesence of their business model. However obselesence is a natural part of technologial innovation. Should we shed a tear for those companies who made top quality floppy disks? What about the ones who made top end VHS tape, the kind people would pay a 500% premium for because it was just very slightly better quality? Sounds a lot like battery matching to me.

Does anyone else remember how they felt back when battery matching and all the ridiculous magical stuff we do to motors these days started? Does anyone else remember before all that mess? Personally I wasn't very enthused by it at all. I remember just being annoyed that all of a sudden "average" R/C expenses and maintenance were going up up up.

We probably didn't see all this fear and loathing when the NiMH revolution happened (there was some, but not like this) because it was merely a new approach that retained a need for all the same business models. However lithium ion, lithium polymer, and lithium manganese technologies represent a much more dramatic paradigm shift, and that's what people are really balking at. It's not about voltage, or selling lathe bits and brushes, or anything else logical, it's about comfortability.

Every once in a while, this sort of revolution is good for an industry. Sure it's tough, sure it's bumpy, sure there's bound to be some confusion. However just because this specifc change represents a dollars and cents threat to certain businesses, that's no reason to treat it (at the rulebook level) any differently than other innovations which we all gladhanded immediately.

This isn't an "if" thing it's a "when" thing, and crossing one's arms and turning one's back isn't gonna stop it. Maybe if electric folks continue all this resistance (no pun intended) it'll be nitro clubs where the revolution really takes hold. Imagine a wave of kids showing up and asking permission to compete unofficially in nitro touring car heats, just because nobody else will let them race. Could get interesting. Sure made press in the aircraft world recently...

Last edited by khyron; 08-03-2006 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:11 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekin
If LiPo's will be legalized (which isn't that far away), than maybe 1/12th's should start running with 3.6V LiPo's, but that's a huge step backwards (from 4.8V). To be honest, I don't think this development is a good one for the 1/12th class...
I wonder what a specially designed 3.6V powered brushless system for 1/12 would look like though, performance-wise? One doesn't exist yet, but someone could engineer it. Might be a lot faster than one might think...look at the unique motors that go in 1/18 scale vehicles and do amazing things. Maybe what 1/12 scale really needs is its own motor industry. Maybe someone scared of losing money in the "dark times ahead for the sub-C" could start looking into this. Sounds like opportunity.
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:19 AM   #100
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I'd like to nominate khyron's post for post of year.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:05 PM   #101
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Believe it or not you guys are still the MINORITY of the electric on road part of RC and all you posts are not going to convert people to your way of thinking.
As I posted, there should be a Lipo/ brushless class at all tracks to show case the new technologies... and if they are demonstrated to be better/cheaper/easier or what ever, people will gravitate to those classes and the ones you guys seem to hate so much will die out. Thats the way to induce change in the hobby.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:53 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
Believe it or not you guys are still the MINORITY of the electric on road part of RC and all you posts are not going to convert people to your way of thinking.
As I posted, there should be a Lipo/ brushless class at all tracks to show case the new technologies... and if they are demonstrated to be better/cheaper/easier or what ever, people will gravitate to those classes and the ones you guys seem to hate so much will die out. Thats the way to induce change in the hobby.
Unfortunately for me this is the general attitude in my home state. Track owners are not big on creating new classes so I don't know if this is an option. I'll show up this fall with my brushless stock motor and lipo and if they want to kick me out so be it. I'll go run offroad or oval where they tend to be more tolerant.

Of course I stink so bad as a driver I'm not sure anywone cares what I run
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:21 PM   #103
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The "give them their own class" option is only tossed around because people know most clubs don't have enough racers to split the classes, and they think it will delay the acceptance, or possibly kill it off indefinitely. It's a weak argument, and transparent as hell.

Can we go ahead and officially discredit that argument as a way to try and kill the movement to embrace new technology, and accept that we need to allow these things to run together for the greater good of the hobby? Yes, the hobby, not the current generation of racers, but the whole damn thing.

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Old 08-03-2006, 01:23 PM   #104
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Don't think the manufacturers don't get it. The Novak SS13.5 and this LiPo battery were both designed with integrated racing in mind, and they're going to push the issue big time. There's no reason clubs shouldn't allow these two things in stock racing.
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:46 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
Believe it or not you guys are still the MINORITY of the electric on road part of RC and all you posts are not going to convert people to your way of thinking.
As I posted, there should be a Lipo/ brushless class at all tracks to show case the new technologies... and if they are demonstrated to be better/cheaper/easier or what ever, people will gravitate to those classes and the ones you guys seem to hate so much will die out. Thats the way to induce change in the hobby.

Sorry but at the club level, I do not believe it. Yes, I have brush motors, because of the closed minded people, but the day they allow BL and Lipo, I will buy my BL motor. I already have a sphere and Lipo. You ask why do I not run it in Mod, because we only have a stock class and only stock because we have lost many racers in TC because a number of reasons, but the biggest, they want to race on Saturday, toss the car in the coner until the next saturday. Only do the hard core people stay with it.

But is simple a location difference, you may have a enough racers to support not making this change, but other places in the country do not have the following. Down in the South, we see a large number of racers moving to off-road, and bashing from racing. They are just sick and tired of the track owners attitues and the time it takes to work on stuff to just go have a little fun on Saturday. They are not worried about running a national or anything else the just want to play race on Saturday.

I know this, because locally we are starting a mobile track to move around get newbies, and we will allow Lipo in all classes, but the spec class, we will allow BL to run in 19T, and we will allow it to run in Stock when the Stock BL version is available. Racing ran by racers for racers. In one week we have had 2 people get TC that are off roaders, 1 new person. So for our area, this is the way of the future, and we are doing it now.
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