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Old 02-16-2007, 05:10 PM   #721
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
Who thinks that once say ROAR says legal tomorrow and all racers go lipo that all the issues we have with nihm will return with lipo as the batteries hit 100$ as you will be able to put club,racer.team versions and all the voodoo we doooo with nihm will return with matching and equilizing ect...... Do current lipo racers(not bashers) really think that it will stay simple as it is today, once everyone starts to race them?

I know right now its all love as u charge em racem forget em, but once they start to really get exploited during competative racing... Doesnt anyone think that all this plug and play hype is gonna turn into ya plug and play if u bash(current stickpack non matched nihm user) and spend spend spend to maintain race version lipos like racers do now with nihm?
[email protected] already posted on another thread that they are already trying to match and process LIPO cells. So, I think that the battery wars will never die. I'm happy with my Carbon packs, they fit well into my current "run for fun" situation...
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:12 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Iceracer
1. What will result in a lipo going into combustion?
2. Is it as simple as just running it down too far then recharging it?
3. Can we be assured of safe charging with certain chargers?
4. How foolproof is charging with a lipo charger? What safeguards are built in?
5. Will a crash of an RC car result in a lipo battery fire?
6. Will a short in the wiring cause a lipo to combust?
7. Are there any warning signs as to when a battery is going to burn up?
8. What is the worst case scenario? A small smoldering fire? Flames shooting in every direction? Toxic smoke? An explosion? What are we dealing with here when things do go bad.
1 and 2. The factors that may ignite a lipo are overcharging, overdischarging then charging, exterior short circuit, internal short curcuit, mechanical damage, and thermal damage. For most industries, the greatest challenge is internal short circuit due to low quality manufacturers.
3 and 4. "Can we be assured of safe charging with certain chargers?" - most lipo chargers I've used are pretty foolproof when used in lipo mode. However, if you charge a lipo under a NIMH setting - you will overcharge the lipo and have the possiblility of ignition.
5. There is a slight chance of ignition if your car crashes if the lipo suffers mechanical damage. If you dent a lipo, there is a good chance of shorting out one or more of the electrode stacks causing localized heating and the possibility of ignition. The hard case around the Orion/Peak cells is a blessing.
6. "Will a short in the wiring cause a lipo to combust?"
This depends of the design of the cell. All the Kokam cells and some of the cells from Enerland use the positive tab as an overcurrent fuse. A hard short will break the + tab. Most shorts will cause the cell to overheat with a small chance of ignition. I was unable to deliberately cause a fire by purposely short circuiting lipo cells, but the reality is that a small percentage will ignite.
7. "Are there any warning signs as to when a battery is going to burn up? "
yeah - the battery puffs up and gets hot! Seriously though, if the cell is manufactured with a contaminant defect, this defect may not short things out unless conditions are just right (ie the pack is jiggled or charged for the Nth time). That's why it's critical to get cells from a reputable manufacturer. The better manufacturers have better control over manufacturing burrs and particulate contamination.
8. "What is the worst case scenario?"
The worst case scenario depends on cell manufacturer and chemistry. Some cell I tested from China act as a flamethrower and burn for 30+ seconds. The Kokam cells self extinguish in about 1-2 seconds.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:31 PM   #723
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There's no doubt that racing will make any battery technology (LiPo included) less desirable over time. That's true for any technology where small variances in manufacturing can be exploited for an advantage. We can only hope that eventually, we'll end up with a battery where the variances are small enough that it's not worth paying extra for them. Will that be LiPo? Probably not, but we don't know for sure.

Regardless of that, many of the other benefits will remain. Smaller equipment, less equipment, the ability to hold charge for a long time, reduced weight and size (a new era of chassis design as a result), greater run time, lower IR, flatter voltage curve. Just because the racing crowd and matchers will ruin one of its benefits doesn't mean it's invalid as a result.

Last edited by syndr0me; 02-17-2007 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:17 PM   #724
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It appears matchers wont like lipo until they can come up with an inferior one that requires replacement more often. The #'s game is a must if lipo is to ever be accepted. We live in a throw away society. Its just how it is. A long lasting lipo will cost X amount for its longevity value, and less for a more racing higher voltage pack that requires more frequent purchases. I believe lipo is the best direction if we are ever to get a handle on happy medium as far as the battery wars. For some happiness will be a long lasting battery. For others a higher voltage less lasting pack for hardcore racing. Lipo is an opportunity to get a handle on cost for the Hobbyist and can make the more serious racer happy at the same time. I think the 3700's were the end of the sub-c era. And the beginning of the lipo age. I'm sticking with lipo even if I have to run mod to beat the voltage war. VOLTAGE WAR, its the same battle only lipo.
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Old 02-17-2007, 08:44 AM   #725
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Theres an aspect that no has really talked about. Now before I write this let me say that I am not a "tree hugger" , as a matter of fact I am about as far from it as you can get. But I do believe that environmentally lipos are better. I dont know if the chemicals are less harmful, but the fact that you are not putting them in a landfill every year has to be good. The reason I even bring this up is that I drive past a couple of landfills every day on the way to and from work. They are not getting smaller and won't , so anything that we can do to minimize what goes into the landfills is good. All the points above are totally valid. Although I wonder, is there much point to matching a 2 cell pack? Aren't the cells fairly close out of the box? And aren't the principles of the chemistry different between NiMh and LiPo different. I mean the IR of these packs is already low, you cant dead short them and you already have a very flat discharge curve, what more do you need? Since the concept is different is voltage as big an issue as everyone thinks? Maybe I'm talking out of my a$$, but from what I have seen the LiPos are damn near perfect, and I think we are at the tip of the iceberg on this one.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:17 AM   #726
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can some of you who run the team orion 3200 post up some pics of your cars
so i can have a look at the wiring.i would like to have a neat install
show me the way gentlemen
thanks
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:25 AM   #727
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Hey Syndrome

Just an FYI at least one organization has stepped up and made a Brushless Lipo Class starting Oct 07. But the bad news is for you its an Oval organization...ARCOR. They are going to run the 4300BL with the Orion 3200 Carbon pack in a class by it's self. That should be one fast as hell class with that combo!!

It's a little weird though considering all Oval racing is 4 cell other than the 6 cell mod class at the birds. Going to be interesting to see how it works.

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Old 02-17-2007, 09:47 AM   #728
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BP: Honestly I hope the #'s never come into play. But its probably the only way to make a racer feel like racing. Its the need to go faster and perfect a slow motor and get the most out of it. Its an edge factor and most racers know winning isn't cheap, you need to know the cells your purchasing are of the highest standard and quality. I would expect maybe those will be pricey even if they don't last. They need the # to feel there getting the most out of there racing.
And theres really nothing wrong with it. Heck if your trying to win you better have the best pack you can find. The problem is if the pack doesn't fall of on volts you may end up with the best pack in the world. Thats the fear of a competeing manufacturer. And the racer will be at, hey hes got the best pack in the world and it will never go bad. Thats why I hope the #'s don't come into play.
If everyone ran modified it would eliminate that factor, that is the need for a superior battery the #'s really wouldn't matter. Run time would be the only worry. I can see a problem stirring if batteries for racing don't rotate. We'll go from he out bought me to hes got connections and has the best battery in the world, and will until another comes along. It will be a battery auction frenzy. And chaos is just one more thing we have enough of. Lipo is coming to be. And I'm watching closely.
And you touch on a subject with about the lipo being friendly to the environment is some thing no one ever touches on due to the fact who really knows where there going after they sell'm off to a new guy? I don't think I've ever thrown one away? I give'm away. I mean the battery recycling bin at home depot? I wonder how often it really gets dumped. And you never see one at the tracks. MUM. Its hard to perdict the future But it can be prevented. I'm looking forward. At least trying to.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:51 AM   #729
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That's really cool, I hope we see more of that sort of thing. Isn't it going to be really fast, though? Especially if they don't add any weight to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
Hey Syndrome

Just an FYI at least one organization has stepped up and made a Brushless Lipo Class starting Oct 07. But the bad news is for you its an Oval organization...ARCOR. They are going to run the 4300BL with the Orion 3200 Carbon pack in a class by it's self. That should be one fast as hell class with that combo!!

It's a little weird though considering all Oval racing is 4 cell other than the 6 cell mod class at the birds. Going to be interesting to see how it works.

EA
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:55 AM   #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
That's really cool, I hope we see more of that sort of thing. Isn't it going to be really fast, though? Especially if they don't add any weight to them.

Yea its going to be VERY fast!! Right now in 4 cell the 4300's are about 6-7 laps faster than a brushes stock motor. So Its going to probably be 4 cell mod type speeds But to top it all off Arcor is doing it as a spec class and you must run a McCalister COT (Car Of Tomorrow) body....which is pretty bad looking.

Should be a great way for "other" organizations to look at it and see how it works and what tweaks they could make for themselves for next year.

One thing I found interesting as well from the Snowbirds results...and this is for brushless and not Lipo stuff. From TQ to 10th in the D main the 4300 class was seperated by 4 laps and 2 seconds. From TQ to 10th in the D of 4 cell stock class it was seperated by 2 laps and 2 seconds. I figured the brushless class would have been tighter than stock.

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Old 02-17-2007, 11:15 AM   #731
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Thats what i figuerd..

But the reduced cost or racing is where im sceptical of. Right now there are claims of slapping a pack into the car and using it all day. Once "RACE" versions come out we will have all kinds of "RACE" advise on how to keep them in PEAK performance...

I guess its progress in technology but expect the same type of treatment we have today with nihm... Weight savings is big but in current rules you have to lead up the car to make min weight so the savings is pretty much non issue.
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Old 02-17-2007, 12:26 PM   #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
One thing I found interesting as well from the Snowbirds results...and this is for brushless and not Lipo stuff. From TQ to 10th in the D main the 4300 class was seperated by 4 laps and 2 seconds. From TQ to 10th in the D of 4 cell stock class it was seperated by 2 laps and 2 seconds. I figured the brushless class would have been tighter than stock.
That is interesting. I wonder if maybe the increased speed was more than some people could handle? Doesn't it generally take quite a bit more skill to wheel a fast car to its limits than a slow one? I also wonder about the motors in general. Even though they can be very even, you need to do the right thing, like get a sintered rotor in them, and understand how to gear it properly with the new rotor. There's a little bit of wiggle room for tuning a brushless motor, and I think a lot of people try to pretend it doesn't exist, since hope springs eternal about all BL being created equal. That's clearly not the case, but it's still quite a bit more simple than tuning a brushed motor.
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Old 02-17-2007, 12:29 PM   #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
I guess its progress in technology but expect the same type of treatment we have today with nihm... Weight savings is big but in current rules you have to lead up the car to make min weight so the savings is pretty much non issue.
The weight thing will be huge if/when the rules change. A lot of a car's design is predicated upon the size and weight of the battery. We'd surely see some different designs for a LiPo specific chassis. I'm curious to see how the Type-R feels with a 3200 in it.
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Old 02-17-2007, 04:40 PM   #734
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If open use Li-Po battery , all car lap time can easy to fast !!
but maybe not have Ni-Mh market ?
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:53 AM   #735
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Has anybody tried using this to balancer to charge there pack yet? http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMGS7&P=M It comes with a adaptor that you have to cut to make it work
If anybody has PLZ let me know.http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXNGC4&P=M

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Last edited by Chris g.; 02-19-2007 at 03:20 PM.
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