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Old 07-11-2006, 12:31 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
By slowing touring cars you are just adding another nail to the coffin.
Why was it not the same for 12th scale? They "slowed" 12ths and they still seem to be a respectable class.

I'm not saying dropping power is the correct solution, but given the choice between less power (less cells) or less drivability (less traction) I'm pretty confident that less drivability is going to hammer down that coffin nail much quicker.
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:32 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Derekb - Every form of full scale unlimited racing has self destructed (GTP, Group C Rally,...). Every form of intelligently controlled racing has prospered (F-1, NASCAR,...). On the R/C side 1/10th pan cars selfdestructed. At the Worlds in Yatabe the best drivers in the world voted not to race 1/10th anymore because it was too fast to control and race cleanly. Without intervention sedans will end up the same.

Dan Hughes - You say things like "testing and "they". Who are they and what did they test? I know Mike Reedy did a lot testing, so have several hundred US oval racers and guess what "They" say....motors and batteries last WAY longer on 4 cells than 6 cells. There was tremendous resistance to the switch to 4 cell in the oval comunity. They said all the same stuff everyone here is saying. Today you can't find an oval guy that will say it was a bad idea. They are back to the speeds they were running with 6 cells in all classes (due to lower minimum weights and motor development) and everything last longer...motors, packs, tires, cars, etc.

In Japan the dominant class is 6 cell 23T stock. The only time anyone runs 4 cell Mod is at JRMCA Nats. Most of the guys that complain about it have never run it. The really fast guys are not running 4T and 5T motors. These motors are on the borderline of being so inefficient that they dont make good power. Most of the really fast guys are running 6T with more timing.
This is by far the best 4cells info and most correct one I saw on RCTech.
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:32 PM   #123
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I totally agree with modeltech, well said mister!!!

I have never ever heard anyone complain about there car is TOO Fast!
Yes, it's really fast now and it will propably go faster and faster in the future, but that's what it's all about, IMO.

If the speedo's cant take the heat and current, then make some better ones!! We really dont need the speedos to be smaller than most receivers do we??
Build them with more cooling devices like heatsinks inside as well as make the casing help cooling as well.

Not much has happened to TC tires for the last 6-7 years, new tires are available, but they dont really have any better traction or life than Sorex as far as I know.
Here in Norway we still run Sorex 36R as we did in 1999 and we all know how fast TC was back then....
With better motors, batteries and cars it's about time for a better tire!!
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:32 PM   #124
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The current crop of TC's is not doing much to bring new people into on road. IMO most people are better off buying a Buggy or a ST, at least they don't have to be on a groomed track to use them.

People just starting out in this hobby aren't going to spend their learning time on a track, it's going to be in the street or a parking lot. How long is a top of the line TC going to last on the street? The only newbie friendly cars are the Tub TC4 and a few Tamiya cars. Around here that means your only choice is the TC4 because no one in 100 miles carries Tamiya TC's....

The Pro's are just that, they are getting paid to do this and they should know the capabilities of their equipment.

4 cells is not the answer for a newbie either, sure it's great for the track but most kits will never see the track. Then you tell someone who shows up with their 6 cell stick pack that they have to take 2 cells off it to run. Plus with LiPo's on their way in, unless you plan to put a voltage regulator between the battery and esc you've either got 3.7v or 7.4 there's no inbetween....
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:40 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBreve
Don't forget that IFMAR/EFRA/ROAR/FEMCA/Etc. rules trickle down to the local club drivers. Good rules at the top level will ensure good racing on a club level. Which in the end will support top level racing.
Spot on!
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:03 PM   #126
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LOTS of conversation and FAST . . . wow!

GTP never quite died - it just migrated into a different format and, as Le Mans and its co-races are mandating closed cockpit cars again, it's migrating right back to where it was.

Class C Rally is actually slower on many courses than the present WRC, with drivers breaking records on long established courses in Finland, Sweden, Monte Carlo, etc. In fact, as the FIA has tried to slow the cars down, they've continued to get faster. Regulating mechanical diffs has not slowed them down - Ford ran its 06 Focus for part of last year with mechanical diffs and it worked quite well.

Lesson learned?

1. Those are the top, the crem de la crem. As Derek, JKI, JohnBull and others have noted - IFMAR Mod is the F1, the WRC, the LeMans of RC.

2. Regulating things is not constructive and does not slow people down. We are competitive by nature and are going to figure out how to go fast.

3. Creation of regulations to control costs, speeds, and controllability can be and often IS constructive. . .AT the ENTRY levels. . .but not at the elite. The SCCA has demonstrated this, inadvertently, when it allowed R-Spec tires in their stock class Autocross - this essentially made an elite, costly "super-stock" class and while that class grew, entry level entries dropped so they created a "new" class without the R-spec tires and it's growing again.


Anyway - just my $.02. Carry on with the vitriol!
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Old 07-11-2006, 04:10 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S
Maybe we should end the modified TC class based on the fact the speeds are now too high?
Not my point at all. What we should be looking at is how to prevent that from happening. Someone posted the question whether there is a problem now. I think the answer is not yet given the speed with which races get filled up. But if there are signs that this may change in the future for whatever reason, shouldn't we discuss this now rather than wait until it hits? The type of changes being proposed by Rick take multiple years to implement. Even changing the number of cells will take one or two years to really get of the ground. If we wait until the number of drivers starts to drop significantly won't it be too late to do anything about it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S
I'd say the reason was the top team drivers switched to TC because their sponsors (the manufacturers) simply wanted to move to the most popular class, two 1/10 scale electric on-road classes is one class too many to support at top level.
That's why the top team drivers switched. My question was why did the other drivers switch in the first place? If everybody had continued running PRO 10 then that would have still been the class that the team drivers run in. The point is that they didn't which killed a great class that was significantly cheaper to run than touring cars.
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Old 07-11-2006, 04:34 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer
2. Regulating things is not constructive and does not slow people down. We are competitive by nature and are going to figure out how to go fast.
Complete bollocks. If those regulations in F1 had not changed how fast do you think they would be going now? Let's put turbo's on the current engines and make them 3.5 litres again. Then add ground effects to give much, much more aerodynamic grip and see what happens. Oh, and then make sure someone builds a tyre that will last more than a couple of laps or we get Indianapolis 2005 all over again.

The fact that speeds have increased DESPITE rules to keep speeds under control to my mind only proof that if the ruling bodies are slow to react technical innovation will outpace their efforts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer
3. Creation of regulations to control costs, speeds, and controllability can be and often IS constructive. . .AT the ENTRY levels. . .but not at the elite. The SCCA has demonstrated this, inadvertently, when it allowed R-Spec tires in their stock class Autocross - this essentially made an elite, costly "super-stock" class and while that class grew, entry level entries dropped so they created a "new" class without the R-spec tires and it's growing again.
That's where I think some of the arguments are flawed and the comparison with F1 falls over. We are not F1. The cars raced at the Worlds are raced in stock classes all over the world. The rules applied at the Worlds form the basis for the rule books used at entry level events all over the world. Sure there are differences, usually relaxing the rules to amphasize the "fun" aspect of entry level racing but nevertheless the basic structure is the same as the IFMAR rules. Moreover the manufacturors have a stake in keeping the rules at this level similar to those for local mod and entry level racers because they want to sell their product.

Not so with F1 is it? I cannot buy a Renault F1 and then race it in The Netherlands. I can however buy a HotBodies Cyclone should I want to and race it. I can buy an Orion V2 motor and run it. I can buy IB4200 batteries and run them. I can even buy the tyres they ran at the Worlds (although I doubt I'd like 'm).
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Old 07-11-2006, 04:42 PM   #129
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5 cell.
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Old 07-11-2006, 05:47 PM   #130
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I thought the Worlds had a really high air temp, thus causing some problems then the tire rule make it fun for others..

The only reason to go to 4 cells is to kill advancement, LIPO.....
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Old 07-11-2006, 06:39 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
I thought the Worlds had a really high air temp, thus causing some problems then the tire rule make it fun for others..

The only reason to go to 4 cells is to kill advancement, LIPO.....
Na.. you go 4cells 4.8V first, than switch to 1cell LiPO, or something else at 4v range.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:04 PM   #132
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Is amperage not what creates heat in electronics? If we drop the number of cells the amperage has to go up to compensate for the drop in voltage, if we want to keep the wattage output up that is. So wont things get even more overheated? Touring car racing is not oval racing, there is alot more acceration going on in a road course than in a oval. If anything shouldnt we be increasing the voltage to increase the efficiency? higher voltage is hard on brushed motors, but really how much longer will they be around for? If we went to 4S lipo (14.8V) our electronics would in theory be 4 times as efficient than they are now.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:07 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WheelNut
Is amperage not what creates heat in electronics? If we drop the number of cells the amperage has to go up to compensate for the drop in voltage, if we want to keep the wattage output up that is. So wont things get even more overheated? Touring car racing is not oval racing, there is alot more acceration going on in a road course than in a oval. If anything shouldnt we be increasing the voltage to increase the efficiency? higher voltage is hard on brushed motors, but really how much longer will they be around for? If we went to 4S lipo (14.8V) our electronics would in theory be 4 times as efficient than they are now.
motors seem to be more efficient at lower voltage.

when you drop the cells/volts down, if you gear up too much and draw too much power you wont make the 5 minutes anymore.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:11 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaybo
motors seem to be more efficient at lower voltage.

when you drop the cells/volts down, if you gear up too much and draw too much power you wont make the 5 minutes anymore.
Not really true, it depends what is constant in the equation. If you increase voltage in the system the amp draw goes down. It's the reason why high voltage lines are HIGH Voltage, and the items that require lots of power run on 220volts (AC/compressors) but I think that's in a fixed equation where you want to produce a set amount of power not in one that has variable load.

Motors are not efficient with a lower voltage it the design that makes it more or less.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:14 PM   #135
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You guys have to remember that corner speeds will increase and car weight will drop decreasing the strain put on the motor....hopefully. I really dont care either way as long as the racing doesn't go to two wheel drive because that is lame.
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