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Old 07-11-2006, 09:36 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
I proposed limiting the chassis in some way because lowering the top speeds does little to make the car easier to drive. Stock and 19 turn touring cars (and 4 cell mod touriung cars for that matter) handle just as well as modified equipped cars. They are generally only slower on the straight, and very close in lap times with equal cornering speeds.

My opinion is that going to fewer cells will not provided changes where they are needed - in the handling of the car. Cars will only be easier to drive when their speeds in the corners are reduced.
Good point. I agree that looking at the cel count is not necessarily the right way to look at it. Top speeds only have an effect with regards to handling on corner entry while power is corner exit. The key is to find ways to keep corner speeds under control. Or more to the point, maintain an acceptable balance between cornering speed and car handling. Power and top speed are part of that equation but I am not at all convinced yet that they are the most important factors with regards to this aspect.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:38 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by tonyv
Great point but flawed. In terms of speed 1/10th pan cars (PRO10) used to be (in fact still are) seriously faster than touring car on rubber. So why did that die out? I loved that class, but everyone started to switch to the slower touring cars and as a result at some point team drivers did the same thing. Why? Because in RC car racing the teams run what sells in the market! PRO 10 was no longer selling so....

The top drivers themselves also had reason to switch. When you run against 70 people the level of competition is quite simply less than when you race against 130 people.

Leaving the "top" class to the "top" drivers is in my opinion too simplistic a view if everyone's goal still is to keep ISTC at the "top".
Tony, racing in PRO 10 for many years I never found the cars were too fast for me and I enjoyed PRO 10 racing more than anything, I loved the class for its speed and excitement. The reason it died out was that touring cars were the new 'big' upcoming class and set to be the dominant class, it became very popular very quickly. Most of the people that I knew who raced PRO 10 tried TC's soon decided they handled like a 'shed' and were far too slow and gave up racing. The class died because touring cars were destined to take over for outdoor racing, 1/12 survived because it's best as an indoor class.

One thing is for sure there are no easy answers to the problems and issues that we all apparently appear to need to face up to. If we don't will TC die?

Hi Joe, great to see you back on the forums. Hope you are keeping well. Yes see you at the KO GP at WLRC!! ps I'm with you on this one, reality is what really matters...
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:39 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by modeltech
Isn't it amazing how many opinions and "solutions" are being offered to a "problem" which is still yet to be clinically defined. Approaches where solutions are adopted without sufficient analysis of the problem are the cause of many frustrations and confusions and invariably destroy what they set out to "solve"!

I think you all need to stop discussing solutions until this "problem" has been clearly defined, analysed and agreed as a real problem......that should be the focus right now. That is an experienced analysts approach speaking!

If you don't have a clear understanding of the "problem" before you try to solve it you may as well just piss in the wind!
Fully agree with that. Perhaps someone who was at the meeting could take a stab at a draft problem definition? Then we can discuss that and see if we can flush out something we can agree on.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:45 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Terry_S
Tony, racing in PRO 10 for many years I never found the cars were too fast for me and I enjoyed PRO 10 racing more than anything, I loved the class for its speed and excitement. The reason it died out was that touring cars were the new 'big' upcoming class and set to be the dominant class, it became very popular very quickly. Most of the people that I knew who raced PRO 10 tried TC's soon decided they handled like a 'shed' and were far too slow and gave up racing. The class died because touring cars were destined to take over for outdoor racing, 1/12 survived because it's best as an indoor class.
I did not think they were too fast either although we did get to the point that the tyres had trouble coping with the cornering speeds. However the point was made earlier in the thread that at the last Worlds the drivers that attended voted to end the class partly based on an argument that speeds had become to high. Not sure to what extent that was the real reason.

Having said that, what is the reason people switched to touring cars which to many of the old PRO 10 and 12th scale drivers felt like driving a "shed"? Touring cars were much slower... Were they easier to drive? (perhaps) Cheaper? (hardly...) What was the reason?
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:48 AM   #95
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Looks like this topic is creating quite a discussion! I had a feeling it would...and I'm happy that there are some posters here that seem to have an open mind....and look at the whole picture, defining the current state of the ISTC class, if there is a problem and what could happen in the future, instead of just stating personal opinions...

Thanks to those who have shared a bit about what was discussed at the IFMAR meeting. It would be nice if someone could also write a bit more in detail about the topics that were discussed and ideas that surfaced during the meeting. Thanks!
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:58 AM   #96
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4 cells is a poor idea and this isn't the first time i have said this. Heat is generated by high current, I^2*R. this is why brushless controllers have problems at 6 cells. If you double the voltage and reduce the current by a factor of 2 (still the same power, P=I*V), the resistaive losses go down by a factor of 4!!! So you can see what going the other way will do, it will increase current draw and the resistive power losses go up!!! More heat!!
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:01 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
Fully agree with that. Perhaps someone who was at the meeting could take a stab at a draft problem definition? Then we can discuss that and see if we can flush out something we can agree on.
The original discussion centered around Oscar Jansen's letter to IFMAR. It stated (from my memory) that battery technology had risen to a point that the the electronics could not "keep up". The cars now contained "too much energy" and to maintain reliability, the amount of energy carried should be reduced by reducing the number of cells.

This spawned another unrelated (in my opinion) argument that the cars were too fast for newcomers.

I was at the meeting by the way.

My solutions:
Limit handling. 2wd perhaps?
Change the nature of the class. Not discussed, but use pan car chassis with current touring car wheels, bodies, and dimensions.
Mechanical braking. Most of the heat problems occur due to braking. Design mechanical brakes mounted on the center shaft operated by a second micro servo using the esc radio channel.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:09 AM   #98
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Modeltech has hit the nail on the head. Is there a problem, and if so, what is it.

The Worlds entry was oversubscribed months before it happened. Is there a problem?

On a much smaller scale, we do have a similar problem here (Malta) - if we want to call it a problem. There is always a lack of people wanting to race in modified. Why? For the same reason less people raced Pro 10. Because at the top end of the scale everything becomes more difficult. And in reality, it is the difficulty factor that puts people off. Cost is usually the excuse.

Last season, both my son and I raced identical Yokomo BD cars, but in different classes. He raced in Mod and won the championship, I raced in stock, and actually finished 2nd in that class, which is not bad for an old man. But to get back to the point. Running the same number of race meetings, my racing - in stock (21 turn in our case) - cost far more than that of my son in Mod. I used up far more motors - burnt a few too, and I crashed more and I was always at least 2 seconds a lap slower. And on the few occasions I raced mod he was also much quicker.

Yet guys will still say they won't race in mod because it's more expensive. It's a handy excuse. They won't race in mod because mod is more difficult, just like the top end of the scale in Pro 10 was more difficult.

Getting back to the Worlds, these guys are the world's cream. If they can do it, then there can't be much wrong with it, so like I think it was Terry said - race in other classes if you feel more comfortable, with your goal being the ISTC, the pinacle of our racing.

I know we won't all get there, but it will be fun trying.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:11 AM   #99
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Changing to 5 cells would be the simplest solution.

If you want to cut down cornering speeds, you have to:

(1) narrow the width of the car....or
(2) narrow the tires

Either of those would be a major task for all the chassis and tire manufacturers. As a result, the cornering loads on the tires will increase as well.

Going to 5 cells would be easier for everyone to adjust. Going to 4 would throw off all the weight balance (except for the Losi) and would result in everyone needing a new chassis.

Besides, I bet a 5-cell 4200 pack is close to the same weight as the 6-cell 2400 packs that were run several years ago.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:13 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
The original discussion centered around Oscar Jansen's letter to IFMAR. It stated (from my memory) that battery technology had risen to a point that the the electronics could not "keep up". The cars now contained "too much energy" and to maintain reliability, the amount of energy carried should be reduced by reducing the number of cells.

This spawned another unrelated (in my opinion) argument that the cars were too fast for newcomers.

I was at the meeting by the way.

My solutions:
Limit handling. 2wd perhaps?
Change the nature of the class. Not discussed, but use pan car chassis with current touring car wheels, bodies, and dimensions.
Mechanical braking. Most of the heat problems occur due to braking. Design mechanical brakes mounted on the center shaft operated by a second micro servo using the esc radio channel.
It seems to me that the easiest solution would be to let market forces bear....i.e. if your electronics don't hold up, we will buy someone else's that will. While the TOP racers may whine about this or that, it is us "The Consumer" that drives the market. This consumer is saying that "I don't care if you think "your" mod class is too fast....I want my 19T/Stock faster. So don't lower the amount of cells in the car to make your life easier. Consider the majority of us in the other classes and make a decision based on what is right for "All of us".

We all like to go fast. If we all went slow we wouldn't break many parts....how would that sit with you guys?
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:26 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
..."I don't care if you think "your" mod class is too fast....I want my 19T/Stock faster. ...
If you want to go faster, shouldn't you run Mod as that is a faster class.
E
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:27 AM   #102
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you can't tell me that if traction were limited, people wouldn't power back voluntarily as they do in offroad.. which might be driving it's resurgence? bring back pro ten!
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:29 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by EricF
If you want to go faster, shouldn't you run Mod as that is a faster class.
E
No competition in mod. Everyone runs 19T or Stock. It is just the way it is around here. Only once in a while do the "Mod" guys show up. It is rare enough that I don't even own a competitive Mod motor anymore......
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:34 AM   #104
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instead of taking cells away why dont they just put a motor limit back on like they used to have 12turn limit?? would save a bunch of money and time.

but im all up for leave it as it is its your own choice if u want to run mod and befor u start runing mod u no how fast it is...

and saying evary 1 who did not experianced heat probs at the worlds was slow (was writ on the first page of this thread) not quite tru as andy moore won it and got no probs

wel thats my input to what i think
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:35 AM   #105
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Rick got it right ...

get rid of the 4W & make it a 2W then all this talk of 5 or 4 cells will disappear...
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