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Old 07-11-2006, 06:25 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
The Worlds isn't for newcomers and also isn't that what's great about electric is that you can run stock or 19-turn?

Rick had one problem the entire time, and brushless is still figuring things out when it comes to heat.

Limiting the world is dumb...how do you sell slower? The whole appeal of RC is that it is fast, so now you want to sell slow? Novak tried that and didn't do well until they have faster brushless. I agree that speeds are hard for new people and that's why Nitro touring never took off, but why is it hard to tell people to work their way up? I think that's more an issue of racing not supporting the new guys in racing, not that racing in it's highest form is too hard? Is that really what you're saying is that it's hard to control a car at 40?
The days of the mains was also the hottest. What would of happened if it would been that hot during qualifying? More problems!!


Cyrul made a good point during the meeting, as a shop owner people are intimidated of the speed. It makes it hard for them to try and drive these cars at the speeds they are going.
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:32 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Evicerator
You know if things are getting hot you could just allow for a little air-intake in the bodies and I'm sure that would do wonders to help keep things running cooler.

How well would nitro sedans run if they were not allowed to run holes in the body for airflow?

I'm not saying cut out entire windows or anything... but... maybe the grill could be allowed to be opened or something
I don't recall any rules saying you could not cut out the grille. I thought they are suppose to look like real touring cars anyways? (i am not a toy car aerodynamicist ) chances are you'll lose some front grip just like the big boys do and then somebody will mysteriously write down on a setup sheet how much tape was on the grille at a big race and then everyone will be following that fad. body manufacturers will enjoy increased volume as the front will deform and tear up easier. it may also increase the chances of getting debris in the drive train.

but hey if it works, go nuts.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:38 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
The days of the mains was also the hottest. What would of happened if it would been that hot during qualifying? More problems!!


Cyrul made a good point during the meeting, as a shop owner people are intimidated of the speed. It makes it hard for them to try and drive these cars at the speeds they are going.
Phil booth was correct at the meeting though. Are we talking about the speeds being too fast for beginners or for pro racers /manufacturers? They are not too fast for pro racers. Manufacturers and drivers should take 100% of the blame when a component fails. When a motor or esc blows, the motor man should have provided a slower motor (more turns). And when the driver complains about the speed, he should modifiy his driving style to lower temperatures ( I KNOW it can be done) and allow himself to use a faster motor.

ESC manufacturers should not worry about the size of the ESC, but concentrate on its durability. So we get a bigger ESC, who cares?

Getting and keeping beginners in the hobby is another argument.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:41 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
The days of the mains was also the hottest. What would of happened if it would been that hot during qualifying? More problems!!
And Italy is not even a really hot country!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
Cyrul made a good point during the meeting, as a shop owner people are intimidated of the speed. It makes it hard for them to try and drive these cars at the speeds they are going.
I agree with him, but the ISTC is the pinnacle of electric rc touring car racing, it's not the place for beginners to race. However surely it should be the place where driving ambitions are started by the spectacle of world class driving skills and amazing car control at high speed.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:43 AM   #80
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[QUOTE=Rick Hohwart].... And when the driver complains about the speed, he should modifiy his driving style to lower temperatures ( I KNOW it can be done) and allow himself to use a faster motor.

ESC manufacturers should not worry about the size of the ESC, but concentrate on its durability. So we get a bigger ESC, who cares?
[QUOTE]



so once again, it s the old "it s not how big it is, it s how you use it"..
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:45 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
ESC manufacturers should not worry about the size of the ESC, but concentrate on its durability. So we get a bigger ESC, who cares?
Rick we don't need bigger ESCs we need them with a decent MOSFET spec!!
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:08 AM   #82
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I don't know if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't lowering the min
weight make a huge difference in temps since it will take a little load
of the equipment even with 6 cell configuration?
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:10 AM   #83
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The great thing here is that you all seem to focus on just one aspect of a very complex subject. For some it is the overheating of electronics, for others it is cost and then off course there is "driveability". The fact if the matter is that it is all of the above and then some.

Adrian was absolutely right when he pointed to some of the classes where speed were left essentially unchecked and died out as a result. We can argue all we want about wanting to go as fast as is technically feasible, but that fun will die pretty quickly if the class starts to die out due to people leaving it. It has happened before and will happen again.

One of the main reasons this happens in my opinion is grip. More speed means more problems with grip. While we have better tyres now than we had a few years ago they certainly did not keep up with the increase in speeds and power. In fact using Adrian's example of PRO 10, you might be interested to know we are nowadays about a lap faster with touring cars on rubber tyres than we were with PRO 10 on foam tyres when it was decided to stop racing that class at Worlds level.

Some have argued you can run 19T or 27T at local levels. True, but those classes have gone through the same increase in speed and power that mod has. Nowadays we run times in 19T that we used to run in mod 3-4 years ago. So to drive 19T now you need the skills of a mod driver from a few years ago.

Where does this end?

Answer: it doesn't. Progress cannot be stopped. New, better & faster stuff will be developed all the time. However fewer and fewer people will be able to handle the speeds. The reason being that quite simply you will not have enough grip. Wear will continue to grow, costs continue to go up. And all the time people at the bottom end will start leaving the class and find a more reasonable (in every sense of the word) way to spend their money and time.

I race at a high level and like going fast. But to go fast I need grip and a car I can control. More and more often I find, despite all my experience and knowledge as well as good equipment, that I have trouble to find the grip and handling I need. Sliding and crashing a car around is not my idea of fun. Moreover it is also not fun to many people.

The question is what to do about this. Reducing the voltage (less cells) is an option but by no means the only one nor necessarily the best one. It will have positive effects in some areas and negative ones in others (as most have argued already). Same goes for increasing the weight. It will slow the cars down but will also lead to more parts breaking (force of impact) as well as more tyre wear and tyre overheating problems.

I don't know what the answer is but do know that ignoring the issues is the best way to killing this class. IFMAR and the manufacturors are right to discuss them as well as potential changes to the rules to address them. Moreover these issues don't just play at the Worlds level but at all levels of touring car racing. IFMAR, the member blocs as well as the manufacturors are well aware of this and the fact that IFMAR and member bloc rules go a long way into setting the stage for country and club level rules for modified, super stock and stock level racing.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:14 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Are we talking about the speeds being too fast for beginners or for pro racers /manufacturers? They are not too fast for pro racers. .
Thank you Rick. I've been trying to say this all along.

If people are not World Championship class then they shouldn't race in the World Championship class.

There are plenty of other classes but leave the top class ballistic. There are a few guys that can handle it, and they are a pleasure to watch.

Thank you Rick.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:21 AM   #85
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Great point but flawed. In terms of speed 1/10th pan cars (PRO10) used to be (in fact still are) seriously faster than touring car on rubber. So why did that die out? I loved that class, but everyone started to switch to the slower touring cars and as a result at some point team drivers did the same thing. Why? Because in RC car racing the teams run what sells in the market! PRO 10 was no longer selling so....

The top drivers themselves also had reason to switch. When you run against 70 people the level of competition is quite simply less than when you race against 130 people.

Leaving the "top" class to the "top" drivers is in my opinion too simplistic a view if everyone's goal still is to keep ISTC at the "top".
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:21 AM   #86
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I proposed limiting the chassis in some way because lowering the top speeds does little to make the car easier to drive. Stock and 19 turn touring cars (and 4 cell mod touriung cars for that matter) handle just as well as modified equipped cars. They are generally only slower on the straight, and very close in lap times with equal cornering speeds.

My opinion is that going to fewer cells will not provided changes where they are needed - in the handling of the car. Cars will only be easier to drive when their speeds in the corners are reduced.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:22 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S
the ISTC is the pinnacle of electric rc touring car racing, it's not the place for beginners to race. However surely it should be the place where driving ambitions are started by the spectacle of world class driving skills and amazing car control at high speed.
And another one. At last we are beginning to see reality.

Thank you Terry. See you at the KO GP at WLRC ?
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:25 AM   #88
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John I don't think most people have a problem with fast. It has more to do with the equipment mainly electronics burning up. Modified is not only a world championship class.

One thing I agree on with Rick Howart is that ESC companies need to stop focusing on the size of the esc if it is compromising reliability.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:25 AM   #89
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It seems like we're discussing 'Speeding' here instead of 'Racing'. Lowering the speed will make it more racing against each other.

I was amazed by the number of drivers at the Worlds who were abled to drive perfectly. The only difference was the speed at which they were able to do this.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:36 AM   #90
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Isn't it amazing how many opinions and "solutions" are being offered to a "problem" which is still yet to be clinically defined. Approaches where solutions are adopted without sufficient analysis of the problem are the cause of many frustrations and confusions and invariably destroy what they set out to "solve"!

I think you all need to stop discussing solutions until this "problem" has been clearly defined, analysed and agreed as a real problem......that should be the focus right now. That is an experienced analysts approach speaking!

If you don't have a clear understanding of the "problem" before you try to solve it you may as well just piss in the wind!
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