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Old 07-20-2006, 01:31 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
There is a philosophical law taught on day one of every engineering class:

Occam' Razor: "With all things being equal , the simplest explanation/answer is normally the right one"
... is 4-cells the simplest answer?

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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Reducing cell count is simple and costs nothing.
... and does it really cost nothing?
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:34 PM   #677
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ok.. But I did not attend an engineering class... So you are telling me that voltage regulators that they use in plains so they do not burn up the servos, is big???? But when I do search, they are very small. So the problem with this is the degree of accuracy is the next issue?

Agreed that a better product should be made, but from a business stand point, what is the point in that? In order to keep cost down, you make a product just good enough to do the job. Now batteries have redefine the job the speedo needs to do, and with newer batteries up and coming, this is will end up becoming a catch 22 problem.

From all this, you have two problem, not one. Getting new people into the sport and, two, the heat from the new larger batteries are killing the equipment. Seems like Occam would say our answer is to slow down.

Then let's add in all the advances in batteries that are currently in the pipeline, and cutting it to 4 cells is a bandage at best. If you limit the voltage going to the motor, then you have taken the battery of the month out of it, correct? This assumes that you can make a voltage regulator in the size needed.....
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:37 PM   #678
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Terry S - you are a elec. wizzard, correct? Really how hard would it be to make a device that limits the voltage? Something that would plug in between the battery and speedo....

Just asking...
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:44 PM   #679
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bvoltz, a current limiter would probably be about the size of a large esc and cost as much, You'd need a good heatsink on it to keep it from frying also... It would essentially be a huge resistor and resistors make a lot of heat. Those little warning stickers we got with the cars of yester-year's mechanical speed controls were't kidding... If you never burnt yourself on a mechanical speed control you haven't been in this hobby long enough...
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:45 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by Terry_S
I don't think you're missing anything and yes the answer could be a simple one, but it depends on what everyone agrees on. It's possible to do many things if enough people want to do it, all that's needed is for the rules to be changed to allow these things.. such as traction control etc, technically it's possible and has been tried before but most people don't want anything that is considered to be a 'driver aid'. Any form of enforced 'limiting' would be seen as a 'driver aid' and not allowed.

The perfect technical gizmo would be a solid state accelerometer (the sort of high tech gizmo that's used to control missiles by inertial guidance systems) it could control acceleration in a straight line and cornering speeds plus braking in fact it could control everything! A 3-axis acceleromter could detect the movement of the car in all directions and connected into a speedo could prevent any electronics and motor 'abuse', it could even make everyone have equal car performance (as equal as the gizmo could be set and calibrated to be equal) and they don't cost very much... but they're not allowed and most likely nobody wants them either.
Sorry I posted before I read this...

Well then, if they keep this up, then they will end up having a big race with 10 entries... Yes, that would fun for 10, but really on long until they get tired of each other and how many times can they win, before they really want new blood???
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:02 PM   #681
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
bvoltz, a current limiter would probably be about the size of a large esc and cost as much, You'd need a good heatsink on it to keep it from frying also... It would essentially be a huge resistor and resistors make a lot of heat. Those little warning stickers we got with the cars of yester-year's mechanical speed controls were't kidding... If you never burnt yourself on a mechanical speed control you haven't been in this hobby long enough...
One year, so you are correct, I'm not aware of the older mechanical speed controls... I spent 20 plus years in go-carts, got into R/C because with R/C I do not need the support staff at the track... When your sponsor is dropping 100K plus a year, it is not fun, it is business... And racing is not my business, it my hobby.

This is not directed at you, but a general commment.
RC is something I can run off and do, and get away... but reading things like this and Lipo, etc... , I feel like left one hen house (home) for another hen house (RC).... Sure we had sticky points in racing, but debating like this.... NO WAY..... Sure some of the chages in go-carting did not last long, but you had action....

And I'm not a engineer, so sorry for the dumb ass questions. So it helps when someone explains a bit.
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:15 PM   #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
One year, so you are correct, I'm not aware of the older mechanical speed controls... I spent 20 plus years in go-carts, got into R/C because with R/C I do not need the support staff at the track... When your sponsor is dropping 100K plus a year, it is not fun, it is business... And racing is not my business, it my hobby.

This is not directed at you, but a general commment.
RC is something I can run off and do, and get away... but reading things like this and Lipo, etc... , I feel like left one hen house (home) for another hen house (RC).... Sure we had sticky points in racing, but debating like this.... NO WAY..... Sure some of the chages in go-carting did not last long, but you had action....

And I'm not a engineer, so sorry for the dumb ass questions. So it helps when someone explains a bit.
bvolts-I mean this in a good way-but if you hadnt heard of rctech-you would never have heard of this argument so it would have seemed like it never existed-if you want to look at it like this. Its that insignificant of a thing "right now" that I doubt it would be discussed at the track, unlike a better brush compound or a new motor would rate.
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:33 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by rayhuang
bvolts-I mean this in a good way-but if you hadnt heard of rctech-you would never have heard of this argument so it would have seemed like it never existed-if you want to look at it like this. Its that insignificant of a thing "right now" that I doubt it would be discussed at the track, unlike a better brush compound or a new motor would rate.
Thanks, I see what you are saying... about this one topic...

So now I will leave it alone, and go back into my hole....
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:37 PM   #684
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One year in the hobby bvoltz I bet you've had a lot to learn in that year! One thing you learn is that things never stand still in racing for long it's the nature of competition, I guess you had that in the racing you did before RC.

For someone in racing for only a year you're doing the right things - you're still asking questions. Too many people get set in certain ways of thinking. Some of us would like to change things but know we can't, at least not very easily. Some people say they know what's the correct thing to do but in truth nobody really knows, it's a case of doing something and hope things work out. Whatever the reality is, all I hope is that any changes result in more people racing, and racing costing less and being more enjoyable. Ultimately what is most important is that we have good close exciting racing.. plus reliability.

"In order to keep cost down, you make a product just good enough to do the job."

I think this is a big part of the problem, you have pointed out the reality!

Regarding the current limiter, it would not be big or expensive and would connect between the receiver and the speed controller. It would not need to be fitted into the power wiring, it's easy enough to do but as I said it's not an option that's being seriously considered as Adrian said mainly because of being open to cheating.
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:44 PM   #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
One year, so you are correct, I'm not aware of the older mechanical speed controls... I spent 20 plus years in go-carts, got into R/C because with R/C I do not need the support staff at the track... When your sponsor is dropping 100K plus a year, it is not fun, it is business... And racing is not my business, it my hobby.

This is not directed at you, but a general commment.
RC is something I can run off and do, and get away... but reading things like this and Lipo, etc... , I feel like left one hen house (home) for another hen house (RC).... Sure we had sticky points in racing, but debating like this.... NO WAY..... Sure some of the chages in go-carting did not last long, but you had action....

And I'm not a engineer, so sorry for the dumb ass questions. So it helps when someone explains a bit.
It's quite alright, I'm no EE (my wife is) I started life going into ME and then changed my profession altogether. I did work for an electronics firm but I did the mechanical portion of the design. That was also a LONG time ago...

This is a hobby for most, although there are a few here who this is their profession. we've heard the arguement for and against by people who make their money in this hobby. To the rest of us, this is a hobby and hobbies are supposed to be fun. I have been in this hobby a long time and many times this hobby takes a back seat to my other hobby; real cars. I've been involved in real race teams and racing my own cars. I was partially disabled in a car accident and now my only racing is RC's...

We all burn up motors, esc's and batteries, it's a fact of life in this hobby. It still costs me less money than when I've thrown a rod through the bottom of a block....

Sponsorship seems to be here to stay in RC also and it's a shame... Constantly I see the posts from someone asking how they can get sponsored. Is this what we all need to have fun in this hobby, people giving us stuff to go to our LHS and race? How long before we see Domino's or Miller Light across the body of a RC car? (I'm emailing Budwieser, don't even think about beating me to it...)

bvoltz... Welcome to the hobby and remember the goal is to have fun....
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:47 PM   #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Somebody has been watching the movie Contact too much...do we generate so much power that we can create a worm hole and visit our dead father

The simplest solution is to build better products. I'll use Jeff's quote on this. "If I can only make a sticker that stuck to a body for 2 weeks, should I have a rule passed that you have to change the body every 2 weeks?"
Actually I read a lot of William of Occam's works during Philosophy, Social Psychology and Social Theory classes in college. He's a really interesting figure in philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham
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Old 07-20-2006, 03:19 PM   #687
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how big does a current limiter have to be?!?!

how about this big?....

the first little circuit is from novak in 1988

the second is a novak speed control with onboard current limiting.

Also i currently have a LRP v7.1 speed control with current limiting plug in chips about the size of pencil eraser. current limiters are more than readily availible

Racers are simply willing to to take the chance on ruining their equipment to win a race. Honestly, the problem is in the mind of the racers, not the equipment. And your not going to fix their minds by reducing cells.
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Old 07-20-2006, 03:41 PM   #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
It's quite alright, I'm no EE (my wife is) I started life going into ME and then changed my profession altogether. I did work for an electronics firm but I did the mechanical portion of the design. That was also a LONG time ago...

This is a hobby for most, although there are a few here who this is their profession. we've heard the arguement for and against by people who make their money in this hobby. To the rest of us, this is a hobby and hobbies are supposed to be fun. I have been in this hobby a long time and many times this hobby takes a back seat to my other hobby; real cars. I've been involved in real race teams and racing my own cars. I was partially disabled in a car accident and now my only racing is RC's...

We all burn up motors, esc's and batteries, it's a fact of life in this hobby. It still costs me less money than when I've thrown a rod through the bottom of a block....

Sponsorship seems to be here to stay in RC also and it's a shame... Constantly I see the posts from someone asking how they can get sponsored. Is this what we all need to have fun in this hobby, people giving us stuff to go to our LHS and race? How long before we see Domino's or Miller Light across the body of a RC car? (I'm emailing Budwieser, don't even think about beating me to it...)

bvoltz... Welcome to the hobby and remember the goal is to have fun....
To Terry_S, Vtl1180ny and rayhuang, many thanks for both the words and understanding of my point/confusion.

You have pointed this out in different ways, but I still can NOT get over the fact that the people that make a living in this hobby do not get the fact, that if they do not get their act together, they will have a much smaller market then they currently have... My saying is to any sales/marketing person, "so tell me, what is 5% of nothing? Because if you keep it up, that is what you will get."
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Old 07-20-2006, 03:51 PM   #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvoltz
To Terry_S, Vtl1180ny and rayhuang, many thanks for both the words and understanding of my point/confusion.

You have pointed this out in different ways, but I still can NOT get over the fact that the people that make a living in this hobby do not get the fact, that if they do not get their act together, they will have a much smaller market then they currently have... My saying is to any sales/marketing person, "so tell me, what is 5% of nothing? Because if you keep it up, that is what you will get."
There are people who can't seem to understand that...

If you Work for a RC car company, You have a sponsor, You travel to other states/countries to race or you recieve any form of income derived from racing RC cars you represent less than 1% of this hobby....

the other 99% have jobs that don't invole RC cars, go to school, have families, race in parking lots, back yards, empty fields or the basement of their LHS with their friends in their spare time....
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Old 07-20-2006, 04:07 PM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
The simplest solution is to build better products.
The truth!! They build it, we will buy it.

Racing, no matter the form (drag, NASCAR, F1, RC cars, go carts, ski-doo's, etc..) it all about pushing the limits. When limits are pushed, things break. We engineers (I'm an EE), go back to the drawing board and make it better. We slap the better product in our ride the next time and push it again.

Buy reducing cells, we will all still push the limits and break stuff. If 4-cells becomes the norm, then a couple years will elapse and we will all be writing the same stuff on forums like this (except for different reasons (ex: cars to fragile, no rip, etc..)).

Either way, this has been the best thread on rctech to date (thanks kentech for starting it!).

That's my 2 cents
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