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Old 07-20-2006, 10:04 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by tonyv
Ok, let's follow that train of thought for a while. Right now we are not taking advantage as things are certainly not hassle free. Two years ago the V2 design kept us going without problems a little longer, but now even V2 motors have to be serviced every run and even V2 motors show the smoke of defeat every once in a while. Now assuming manufacturors are genuinely doing their best to solve these problems and aren't getting there, something will need to change. Moreover I think the car's will need to have more grip and handle better than they do now if we go for even more speed.

What do you propose should happen to get us hassle free and even faster runs?
When I speak of hassle free, I am referring to brushless motors that require little or no maintenace. By the time any 4-cell decision is made, I feel brushless motors will be what we are all using. Of course brushed motors can be improved, but the rules must be changed to allow further development, and that is what is being done. But I feel that brushless is the future and that is where development dollars should be spent.

I can't say I am an expert on speedos. But I can see that they are much smaller than they once were. Sure the smaller units are much better than their bigger predecessors, but I fail to see the reasoning behind smaller and smaller speedos when they overheat at their current specs.

Maybe they can't be made better. I can not say for sure. It w ould be interesting to see how big a speedo (brushless) would have to be so that it could provide bulletproof operation.

As an industry (electric), I believe we will do a lot better for ourselves by solving the problems we have with better products.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:12 AM   #662
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Very true, I run 12th scale as well so have 5 sets of cells for each scale, what would be a good idea is if they do take it down to 4 cells do the same for off road so there is a blanket base for all the main variations. As a lot of people do race more than one class this would also bring the cost down across the sport making it more accesseble to the masses.
See, there's no way I want to go to 4 cells in 10th Stadium Truck... Although I will never use the available power (running a 14 turn) I like to know that I have that extra little ooomph to clear the jumps.

I also race 12th scale and I only keep 4 packs for that....
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:23 AM   #663
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See, there's no way I want to go to 4 cells in 10th Stadium Truck... Although I will never use the available power (running a 14 turn) I like to know that I have that extra little ooomph to clear the jumps.

I also race 12th scale and I only keep 4 packs for that....


I can see your point!!! But if we start with sedan how long will it be before it transfers to off road as well? Plus i'm sure by the time we're running 5000 there will be enough ooomph there to clear the jumps.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:27 AM   #664
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i love arguing about limiting traction with the folks that import the spec tires we race on... but i digress

also someone explain to me how going to 4 cells is not going to make more of an emphais on great batteries, perfectly tuned motors with fresh brushes, and fresh tires that most of us can barely afford now? novices don't have speed issues, they have right hand and left index finger issues called learning to drive.. we insist novices drive stock, and they drive slowly into the boards.... the issue here is slowing down experienced and pro drivers who can handle a mildly traction restriced car which de-emphasises the need for all out HP and electronic abuse... 4 cells will bring all the headache that the stock class has now on the competitive level... premium everything!
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:30 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by srhand
I can see your point!!! But if we start with sedan how long will it be before it transfers to off road as well? Plus i'm sure by the time we're running 5000 there will be enough ooomph there to clear the jumps.
5000mah is just the capacity, taking off cells isn't decreasing capacity, it's decreasing the amount of available voltage and current available. You can have 120000mah, if you don't have the current available you aren't going anywhere fast.

4 cell sedan will make this a race only class, you're only going to buy a car to race. You'll lose a lot of the people buying a car to run with their buddies and people coming over from off road or EP MT's.

12th scale and oval are race only cars, do you see someone buying either chassis to go run for fun??
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:51 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by tallyrc
also someone explain to me how going to 4 cells is not going to make more of an emphais on great batteries, perfectly tuned motors with fresh brushes, and fresh tires that most of us can barely afford now?
Ok when is this ever going to change? You say we can barely afford it now but dont give us reasons why four cell will be more expensive.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:56 AM   #667
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Ok when is this ever going to change? You say we can barely afford it now but dont give us reasons why four cell will be more expensive.

Having fresh bang upto date equipment is always going to be there no mater what happens its just the way any form of competitive sport is.

Four cells would be cheaper in the long run:

Here in the UK,

matched 43's 4 cells 25 6 cells 40

Ps this is from Demon models (thought i'd get the plug in i might get some free stuff!!!)

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out!
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:21 AM   #668
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Ok when is this ever going to change? You say we can barely afford it now but dont give us reasons why four cell will be more expensive.
did you read the post? anytime there is a restrictive class, it puts more of an emphasis on premium equipment such as better batteries, new brushes every round, cutting the com (new motors) fresh tires....
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:26 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by tallyrc
did you read the post? anytime there is a restrictive class, it puts more of an emphasis on premium equipment such as better batteries, new brushes every round, cutting the com (new motors) fresh tires....
Thats where we are right now....
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:26 AM   #670
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show up at a major race with your 3 month old club packs and see how you hold up power wise compared to the folks that have brand new fresh cycled packs....in open mod i buy new batteries maybe every year and a half.... power is never an issue... (i run relatively short tracks 80-100' straight, asphalt) if we were to run 4 cells and i tried that against someone else buying new batts all the time, forget it...
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:33 PM   #671
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I have been following this for some time now. What I do not get is why a voltage regulator is not the answer. Who cares about the batteries if you are limited on the voltage available to your motor. This is very easy to tech, then you don't not have worry about if someone has something special. Turn on the car, take a reading and if to much voltage is coming out of the regulator, then you are DQed. It is elec. most everyone has a meter, so there should be no reason for you to "not know".

I just do not get all this talk and the answer is a simple one.

Or what I'm I missing?
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:53 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by tallyrc
did you read the post? anytime there is a restrictive class, it puts more of an emphasis on premium equipment such as better batteries, new brushes every round, cutting the com (new motors) fresh tires....

Yea I read it. So how many cells do you race with now? I'm guessing your restricted to 6. I do agree with you that restricted classes "stock" will always be expensive. If I go to a big race I will buy new packs and cut my com and replace brushes every few runs to be competitive. If we race with four cells I'll still buy new cells and cut the com every few runs but now spend less on batteries. What we need is some hard data to make an informed view as opposed to just shooting from the hip.

I think the biggest threat to our hobby is it becoming cost prohibitive which leads to a continuing decline in racers. All I want is to do show up for a club race and see 80 to 90 people a night and know that Im not going to spend the kids college fund to stay in the game.
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:03 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by bvoltz
I have been following this for some time now. What I do not get is why a voltage regulator is not the answer. Who cares about the batteries if you are limited on the voltage available to your motor. This is very easy to tech, then you don't not have worry about if someone has something special. Turn on the car, take a reading and if to much voltage is coming out of the regulator, then you are DQed. It is elec. most everyone has a meter, so there should be no reason for you to "not know".

I just do not get all this talk and the answer is a simple one.

Or what I'm I missing?
There is a philosophical law taught on day one of every engineering class:

Occam' Razor: "With all things being equal , the simplest explanation/answer is normally the right one"

We covered this a few pages back. It would not be a small device, the more accurate you wanted it to be the more expensive it would be, it would require calibration and tech, where would it fit on our current chassis, would we raise the min weight to compensate for it, is it another opportunity to cheat?

A voltage or current regulator is a costly and overly complicated solution that can create new problems.

Reducing cell count is simple and costs nothing.
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:06 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
There is a philosophical law taught on day one of every engineering class:

Occam' Razor: "With all things being equal , the simplest explanation/answer is normally the right one"

We covered this a few pages back. It would not be a small device, the more accurate you wanted it to be the more expensive it would be, it would require calibration and tech, where would it fit on our current chassis, would we raise the min weight to compensate for it, is it another opportunity to cheat?

A voltage or current regulator is a costly and overly complicated solution that can create new problems.

Reducing cell count is simple and costs nothing.
Somebody has been watching the movie Contact too much...do we generate so much power that we can create a worm hole and visit our dead father

The simplest solution is to build better products. I'll use Jeff's quote on this. "If I can only make a sticker that stuck to a body for 2 weeks, should I have a rule passed that you have to change the body every 2 weeks?"
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Old 07-20-2006, 01:26 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by bvoltz
I have been following this for some time now. What I do not get is why a voltage regulator is not the answer. Who cares about the batteries if you are limited on the voltage available to your motor. This is very easy to tech, then you don't not have worry about if someone has something special. Turn on the car, take a reading and if to much voltage is coming out of the regulator, then you are DQed. It is elec. most everyone has a meter, so there should be no reason for you to "not know".

I just do not get all this talk and the answer is a simple one.

Or what I'm I missing?
I don't think you're missing anything and yes the answer could be a simple one, but it depends on what everyone agrees on. It's possible to do many things if enough people want to do it, all that's needed is for the rules to be changed to allow these things.. such as traction control etc, technically it's possible and has been tried before but most people don't want anything that is considered to be a 'driver aid'. Any form of enforced 'limiting' would be seen as a 'driver aid' and not allowed.

The perfect technical gizmo would be a solid state accelerometer (the sort of high tech gizmo that's used to control missiles by inertial guidance systems) it could control acceleration in a straight line and cornering speeds plus braking in fact it could control everything! A 3-axis acceleromter could detect the movement of the car in all directions and connected into a speedo could prevent any electronics and motor 'abuse', it could even make everyone have equal car performance (as equal as the gizmo could be set and calibrated to be equal) and they don't cost very much... but they're not allowed and most likely nobody wants them either.
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