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Old 07-20-2006, 05:52 AM   #646
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IF a cells voltage can only be increased because of a higher capacity then there will be no way of controlling the voltage issue,it will always continue to creep up.

What ultimately needs to be decided is do you limit the number of cells or expect the esc developers to make better speed controls to handle the power of the cells and the motor? If so will certain brands have the edge over others that cant? Throw user application into all this and it leaves one big amount of cloudy water.

Is our hobby turning into an issue of where the industrial development in power output needs to be stabilised to maintain good racing?

Furthermore,is it actually possible? Unlikely!
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:53 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by tc3team
What ultimately needs to be decided is do you limit the number of cells or expect the esc developers to make better speed controls to handle the power of the cells and the motor?
I believe we need both.

As far as I am concerned there is no argument that the ESC manufacturors need to do whatever they can to improve their products. I also believe that in general they are doing just that. Having said that I also believe some of the technical rules need to be changed to help the manufacturors do that. For instance allowing other materials for the magnets in addition to those allowed currently.

Having said this I think we also need to reduce the voltage to a level that will reduce heat build-up and as an added bonus improve the driveability (less power = less weight transfer = easier to drive; less weight will help too). I also like the idea of going to 6 minute heats or perhaps even longer as I miss the days where pacing yourself to make runtime was part of the challenge of racing. Nowadays that skill is much less important.

But then that's my 2 cents worth. Sofar I think only the manufacturor point is agreed by most if not all. The other points have both supporters and opponents with valid arguments for both sides.
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:10 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by tonyv
I believe we need both.

As far as I am concerned there is no argument that the ESC manufacturors need to do whatever they can to improve their products. I also believe that in general they are doing just that. Having said that I also believe some of the technical rules need to be changed to help the manufacturors do that. For instance allowing other materials for the magnets in addition to those allowed currently.

Having said this I think we also need to reduce the voltage to a level that will reduce heat build-up and as an added bonus improve the driveability (less power = less weight transfer = easier to drive; less weight will help too). I also like the idea of going to 6 minute heats or perhaps even longer as I miss the days where pacing yourself to make runtime was part of the challenge of racing. Nowadays that skill is much less important.

But then that's my 2 cents worth. Sofar I think only the manufacturor point is agreed by most if not all. The other points have both supporters and opponents with valid arguments for both sides.

I too believe manufactures are doing what they can to help but I think that limit is close,or virtually at the end point of going further,if you hear of cases where the solder gets so hot on curcuit boards and its melting the solder then surely things are at their limit,add to the conclusion that wires are coming unsoldered off their motor tabs then what else can be done?

Not every company (for example that makes speed controls) also works alongside cells and motors too,so even if they can guarantee their products work well in harmony they will never be able to advise on the hybrid matching which has been common place.

Personally I think the focus is more on motors and cells,but thats just my thought. If theres power going in and out of something and its working ok until the point where solder melts surely that area isnt the issue,right?
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:38 AM   #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
I also like the idea of going to 6 minute heats or perhaps even longer as I miss the days where pacing yourself to make runtime was part of the challenge of racing. Nowadays that skill is much less important.
This is what I have been trying to say all along. The skill of pacing yourself is just as important now. But rather than pacing yourself to make runtime, you must pace (and control) yourself, and choose your equipment properly, to prevent electrical or mechanical failures.

Anyway I think this subject has been beaten to death

When will we know if 4-cells is the answer? About 6 months after the rule is changed. Running existing cars, motors, brushes, and ESCs with 4-cells will yield the results we want to see.

But I can promise you that the first thing we do is develop a specialized 4-cell brush that lasts one run but produces maximum power for that one run.

Who thinks tires will last longer because we are driving lighter cars? Of course they will last longer. But lighter cars can take advantage of softer tires. Do you think anyone will produce them? Of course! And they will probably give the best results in the first run, just as they do now.

Those that want 4-cell are playing a VERY dangerous game. The techonlogy available to electric racing is something that could actually help it compete against nitro. Brushless motors need very little maintenance, and with LiPo technology cars can run faster and longer than ever before.

I have been racing electric for 25 years and been in the R/C industry for 20. One thing I have learned is that there are two things that electric racers have ALWAYS desired - more run time and more power.

Going to 4-cells may seem like the right decision. Maybe it will temporarily help touring car racing. The reality is we are ignoring the technology available to us by looking at a shortsighted solution instead of embracing what we have available and producing faster and longer running electric vehicles.

ELECTRIC VEHICLES SHOULD BE FASTER!
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:54 AM   #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This is what I have been trying to say all along. The skill of pacing yourself is just as important now. But rather than pacing yourself to make runtime, you must pace (and control) yourself, and choose your equipment properly, to prevent electrical or mechanical failures.

Wasnt there a time where a 1700 or 2000 wouldnt last (or would only just last) 5 minutes even in 27t if you got the gearing wrong? The competition was just as fierce 5/6 year ago as it is now but the difference being is even with a set of 3300s now you will still last the 5 minutes...

Maybe thats one of the reasons why stock has got easier over the years?
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:01 AM   #651
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I remember when you could dump a pack running STOCK....


4 cells is great for TC Racing and TC Racing only... But Racers are NOT the majority. There are also many who race off road as well as on road and use the same packs for both....
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:09 AM   #652
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Maybe a new spec of modified motor needs to be designed,one with fixed timing,ballraced, but can be taken apart? Then if there is a motor limit you cant go maxing out the timing for any performance benefit.

Of course theres still the issue of springs and brushes to contend with,but maybe that will make less of an impact with a fixed timed motor?
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:11 AM   #653
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Rick - Have you been tracking what happing in the Nitro Sedan market? Its collapsing. Where did I get this info...Nova Rossi, RB Concepts, Sirio. All their sales are plummeting. Should electric try to look to Nitro as a brass ring to reach for...I don't think so.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:20 AM   #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
ELECTRIC VEHICLES SHOULD BE FASTER!
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! RIGHT ON RICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:23 AM   #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Rick - Have you been tracking what happing in the Nitro Sedan market? Its collapsing. Where did I get this info...Nova Rossi, RB Concepts, Sirio. All their sales are plummeting. Should electric try to look to Nitro as a brass ring to reach for...I don't think so.
It is. Maybe on-road is not popular, or sedans, or complicated/hard to set up/maintenance intensive/fragile 4wd chassis. This could be why they are both hurting.

People want speed and they want hassle free run time. We have electric motors that are more efficient than ever, and batteries that have more capacity and are more efficient than ever. We should be taking advantage of them.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:24 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Rick - Have you been tracking what happing in the Nitro Sedan market? Its collapsing. Where did I get this info...Nova Rossi, RB Concepts, Sirio. All their sales are plummeting. Should electric try to look to Nitro as a brass ring to reach for...I don't think so.
There are a lot of factors built into the Nitro Sedan Market, problems that are not present in the Electric Market. The biggest one I have run across is that the Nitro guys want a 150' straight. That is just not going to happen in most parking lots...... A lot of these guys won't even run their cars if the track isn't "BIG".
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:40 AM   #657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This is what I have been trying to say all along. The skill of pacing yourself is just as important now. But rather than pacing yourself to make runtime, you must pace (and control) yourself, and choose your equipment properly, to prevent electrical or mechanical failures.
And I do agree with that. But the consequence of not pacing yourself in the 90s was that you dumped and could not complete the run. Nowadays the consequence is a blown ESC and/or motor and possibly even battery. If you are on a budget you may not only not finish the run, you may be done for the day.
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:48 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
People want speed and they want hassle free run time. We have electric motors that are more efficient than ever, and batteries that have more capacity and are more efficient than ever. We should be taking advantage of them.
Ok, let's follow that train of thought for a while. Right now we are not taking advantage as things are certainly not hassle free. Two years ago the V2 design kept us going without problems a little longer, but now even V2 motors have to be serviced every run and even V2 motors show the smoke of defeat every once in a while. Now assuming manufacturors are genuinely doing their best to solve these problems and aren't getting there, something will need to change. Moreover I think the car's will need to have more grip and handle better than they do now if we go for even more speed.

What do you propose should happen to get us hassle free and even faster runs?
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Old 07-20-2006, 09:54 AM   #659
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if you want to go faster, you could race pan car with the rest of us.

Sound good to me!!!!! Some real speed!!!
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:02 AM   #660
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There are also many who race off road as well as on road and use the same packs for both....

Very true, I run 12th scale as well so have 5 sets of cells for each scale, what would be a good idea is if they do take it down to 4 cells do the same for off road so there is a blanket base for all the main variations. As a lot of people do race more than one class this would also bring the cost down across the sport making it more accesseble to the masses.
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