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Old 07-19-2006, 11:34 AM   #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttso
Yes you can compensate some traction lost with setup, but not all. Also, when you pick the wrong tire (harder or softer than optimized tire), the margin of setup decrease, means it's harder to get a drivable setup.

Some might said "oh cool, setup is part of skill". Yes setup is part of skill but it take a long long time to learn, you need to learn how to drive first, than how to setup. By reducing the margin of drivable setup, you just turn your head away from those new comer, means this hobby will be harder to start, means less new comer, means less new $, means "BAD".
There was easliy 2x's the amount of people racing in 1989 then there is today. We raced pancars on parking lot tracks in front of hobbiestores and we didnt have any complaints of poor traction or drivability issues. If anything I always herd " my cars is dialed","the track is tacky" and "car is planted" sure there were places we raced at that the traction wasnt any werse then touring car on a slighty sugered track. The point is newbies were coming in, 4wd touring came along ! Where did everyone go? get the point! I think a 2 wd version of what we are racing will work. I had 10l3 t and with a six cell stock could outrun a mod sedan against a factory caliber driver outdoor on asphalt !!. So I am sure a 2 wheel tourer designed correctly will do fine and make it simpler .


I worked as an auto tech for 14 years and performed alighnments. I worked at an audi dealer, it was more work, more difficult to do, and more specs to watch out for on a Awd car compared to a 2wd car. They require more maintence, and costs are also higher for the owner. Point being Awd touring could maybe, be whats killing the hobby.
The least amount of parts we have will reduce cost, keep temps down , and make the cars simpler for the newbie. Its an Idea.
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:34 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by BlackKat
Adrian, you know with today's vehicles that we can set them up for anything. If we had harder tires, we would have to set the car up to compensate (since we'd be having to compensate for the harder tires, we wouldn't be going as fast around the track, and not pushing our stuff as far)

Depending on how it's setup, the car might even be a little easier to drive, just slower around the track in terms of lap times (kinda sounds like your 4-cell idea, huh? just a lot cheaper though)

Adrian, another question for you...If you think that a car that requires throttle control to drive would turn people off, then why is 2wd off-road still around and popular?
2wd is not all that popular. 2WD truck, Nitro 2wd truck and 1/8th are the big off road classes. Why...more traction and they are easier to drive.
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Last edited by AdrianM; 07-19-2006 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 07-19-2006, 12:22 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Do you mean like bigger more expensive speedo that wont fit in any of the cars we have now? How about bigger more expensive motors that CAN take the heat but sell for $200 street prices. All of these equipment exists now but implementing this would cause much more upheaval than just leaving 2 cells off your car.

All of the above require major car redesigns.

Going to 4 cells cost nothing. The cars we have right now can run 4 cells if you move the speedo or Rx over for balance.

New cars will come to better deal with 4 cells but new cars will come anyways wether we run 4 or 6 cells.
Do you mean bigger than a .....Tempest? I have one of those still laying around and if I can get it into a F201 I can get it into my RDX. How much bigger do you think they need to go? As far as motors go, how about a 5 pole armature in the same 540 sized can we have today. No redesigns needed on the cars at this point.

Going to 4 cells has no cost? Well let just say I stay with this and go with 4 cell. What do I need? New motors? New (can you say runtime) batteries? New "optimized" for 4 cell speed control. New chassis "optimized" for 4 cell. I'll pay for it because I love to compete but what about the guys that don't have the pockets for it? "Don't worry, your stuff is still good. You can still run with us. What? You're .5 a lap off the pace. Sorry 'bout that. If you just buy....."

P.S. have you seen the retail price of a brushless system? WOW! but I will pay it when one works without thermalling or blowing the rotor under race conditions.
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Old 07-19-2006, 12:50 PM   #634
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Do you mean bigger than a .....Tempest? I have one of those still laying around and if I can get it into a F201 I can get it into my RDX. How much bigger do you think they need to go?

About that size but more fets. Have you tried running a Tempest with a 7 turn and IB4200SHX cells...good luck with that.

As far as motors go, how about a 5 pole armature in the same 540 sized can we have today. No redesigns needed on the cars at this point.

I have asked a few of the motor manufacturer about that and they dont seem to thing that would be benificial for our application.

Going to 4 cells has no cost? Well let just say I stay with this and go with 4 cell. What do I need?

A soldering iron

New motors?

Yes you will need new motor. Stock guy will want to get 19T and some 19T guy will get Mods. This is a non issue as motors are consumable. You will need ot buy new motors wether you run 6 or 4 cells. They wear out and new better one come along all the time.

New (can you say runtime) batteries?

We have battery homolongation rules in the US. You run what leag on Jan 1, 2007 for all 2007. If you run at a non ROAR races you get cells whenever new ones come out. It makes no diffrence wether you run 4 or 6 cells

New "optimized" for 4 cell speed control.

You got me on this one. You are right. The BEC's in the speedos will get booster circuits so the servo and ESC get consistnat power. The LRP Spheres and QC3 are already using this technology.

New chassis "optimized" for 4 cell. I'll pay for it because I love to compete but what about the guys that don't have the pockets for it? "Don't worry, your stuff is still good. You can still run with us. What? You're .5 a lap off the pace. Sorry 'bout that. If you just buy....."

Yeah, but whats new? New sedans come out on a 12 month cycle or faster from most manufacturers. Most guys I know get a new sedan every year even if its the same model just becuase they wear out if you race a lot. Thats said guys are still fast with TC3's, T1's, Missions, XXXS', etc. You can run 4 cells with what you have now and replace your car whenever you would normally do it.

P.S. have you seen the retail price of a brushless system? WOW! but I will pay it when one works without thermalling or blowing the rotor under race conditions.

I am with you on this...lol! 4 cell will end the problerms though so I am saving up.
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Old 07-19-2006, 01:06 PM   #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
This isn't about NEWBIES. This is about the ELITE at the WORLDS having electronics and motor problems.
First of all, can you please stop SHOUTING? This is exactly what Adrian meant. Just because you shout doesn't mean you are right. I see these problems at local level right now. I see it both in stock (27T) and in super stick (19T). Are the problems big at that level now? No, not yet, but then they weren't that big at the top level a year ago and see where we are now. Then think ahead how things will be in two years time if nothing is done. That is what the discussion is about.

Any rule changes will not hit until next year at the earliest at the international level and will probably take an extra year before they are adopted at national level in most countries simply because that's how long it takes. Since the IFMAR rules are to a large extent the template used for the rules at both geography and country levels trickling down not only to mod classes but stock and super stock too I feel strongly that newbies definitely need to be taken into account as well, eventhough it will ultimately be decided by the country ruling bodies what rules will be adopted.

Let's fast forward for a second under the assumption we do nothing shall we? We are two years onwards and things have (literally) heated up even more. The batteries are even better and while the speedo's have improved, the limitations in the rules have prevented the type of progress needed. Moreover the speeds have grown so high that 19T is now as fast as mod was two years ago. People crash all the time because they and their cars cannot handle the speeds. If they don't crash they blow a motor or speedo. Having fun? I'm not.

And now the real fun begins. Someone starts a discussion on RCTech about the speeds and about the electronics not being able to handle the power the batteries can provide. This person raises the issue of the dropping numbers of participants at events and then angrily states: "How is it possible that the ruling bodies did not see this coming? There was a discussion on the subject two years ago when somehting could have been done to prevent this. Net result? This class is dying, fast. And now it is too late...".

You may disagree with me all you like, but then please do so looking forward a couple of years and not just at what is happening right now.

A final thing to think about. At the Worlds the drivers were coming of the track with about 1000Mah left in the batteries. Eventhough they used only about 75% of the potential power in the battery they had problems with thermal shutdowns, wires coming unsoldered, blown speedos and blown motors. Scary to think what will happen if somehow the extra 1000Mah gets used too. But then, this is what I see happening at the local level all the time. People managing to dump before the 5 minutes are up. Where does that 1000Mah go? It certainly isn't speed since they would be Worlds contenders if it were. So it goes into heat buildup. And that is exactly where the problems start...
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Old 07-19-2006, 01:37 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by tonyv
First of all, can you please stop SHOUTING?
For the record, I am not shouting. THIS IS SHOUTING! This is STRESSING a word to get a point across. See.....

Besides, I don't claim to be RIGHT (not shouting), this is a discussion. People can feel passionately about what they see as the right way to go. I am not calling anyone names or anything....I just want another viewpoint WELL (not shouting) presented so that other options are considered. I don't want to slow down, to be honest there is so little mod around here I really don't care what happens at the Worlds other that bragging rights for the car/motor/speedo/whatever that I run so I can "one up" the boys. If it is to be 4 cell then fine, so be it, but I will be very dissapointed with the lack of punch (Mod) and do not wish to wait for 3 years for technology (that we have right now) to bring it back. Only to have someone take it back away from me. I like my 19T fast as HELL (not shouting) and my Mod even faster.
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:03 PM   #637
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:17 PM   #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
...
How about one the size of a Tempest with all the cool new fets in it?

As far as motors go...yeah. Have to buy new but, I zap, cut, rebuild myself into months (forgoing the occasional magic smoke session) of use before buying new. A mandated switch to 4cell would require an immediate purchase that some would not be ready for and the instant obsolesence of my existing inventory. Just because I am fast with a 12 month old stock/19T motor won't make one of the guys buy it off of me. LOL

I already have a soldering iron.

Batteries will have a large effect on 4 cell racing. Ask the oval guys. When the big switch happened everyone wanted BIG runtime batteries. I really think that this will happen again. Right now running 19T or Stock we mostly just look at IR and Voltage. If I am racing mod, voltage under the curve will once again be important and now I will want higher (highest) runtime batteries at an added expense. This will keep that hungry Mod motor fed untill the end of the race no matter how stupid I get with the throttle.
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:34 PM   #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
For the record, I am not shouting. THIS IS SHOUTING! This is STRESSING a word to get a point across. See.....

Besides, I don't claim to be RIGHT (not shouting), this is a discussion. People can feel passionately about what they see as the right way to go. I am not calling anyone names or anything....I just want another viewpoint WELL (not shouting) presented so that other options are considered. I don't want to slow down, to be honest there is so little mod around here I really don't care what happens at the Worlds other that bragging rights for the car/motor/speedo/whatever that I run so I can "one up" the boys. If it is to be 4 cell then fine, so be it, but I will be very dissapointed with the lack of punch (Mod) and do not wish to wait for 3 years for technology (that we have right now) to bring it back. Only to have someone take it back away from me. I like my 19T fast as HELL (not shouting) and my Mod even faster.
This is the exact reason why I don't post opinions on the thread. No matter what someone will take it the wrong way but yet eveyone ends up in your pits asking what you're running...hmmmmmmmmmm must be doing something right. Just my $0.02 but I'm sure someone will flame me.
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:43 PM   #640
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I can't believe you just posted that. You are way off base here. You need to go back to school and do some more learnin'.

Happy now?
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:53 PM   #641
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how about buying a speed control with a current limiter on it, then use it.

I would imagine the racers that are not having problems wouldn't want a change to four cell, and the racers that have had problems would like to see the change.

So it seems the question is, should everybody be slowed down because some are having problems?
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:12 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by STLNLST
This is the exact reason why I don't post opinions on the thread. No matter what someone will take it the wrong way but yet eveyone ends up in your pits asking what you're running...hmmmmmmmmmm must be doing something right. Just my $0.02 but I'm sure someone will flame me.
FLAME! FLAME! FLAME! LOL

Want to buy a used 19T C2. Rumor has it that it is as fast as a 8T. Only "Lightly" used....
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:33 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by srhand
The club would go under due to the cost of changing over to a 4 cell car, (the kit) i understand that in the long run (if battery cost remain stable) it will be more cost effective however a specifically design 4 cell car will be needed. Our club has about 40-50 members most of which run sedan, most of them would buy a car every 2-3 years so with an enforced change like this most of them wouldn't be able to compete due to having to buy a car straight away. (however it may push people into the 12th class)

Yes i agree that a four cell car would be a lot better to drive in terms of drivability!! Look at the difference it makes to a 12th scale?! And after a year or so they would be just as fast due to the cells catching up with extra capacity!! (so the problem starts again!!)
who said the 6 cell chassis are useless with 4 cells? as ttso pointed out, they're still more than useable with 4 cells.

at the very minimum, most manufacturers would release a '4 cell lower deck', the rest of the car doesnt need to change, just the positions of the cells and maybe have a flat area for a receiver or speedy (or receiver pack even) to sit, just in case nobody can figure out how to cut out a 2x2 inch peice of lexan to stick over those 2 defunct battery slots
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Old 07-20-2006, 02:03 AM   #644
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Hrrmmm...With so much talk about this...

I was wondering when's the actual verdict will be out?? Just curious
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Old 07-20-2006, 04:13 AM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
First of all, can you please stop SHOUTING? This is exactly what Adrian meant. Just because you shout doesn't mean you are right. I see these problems at local level right now. I see it both in stock (27T) and in super stick (19T). Are the problems big at that level now? No, not yet, but then they weren't that big at the top level a year ago and see where we are now. Then think ahead how things will be in two years time if nothing is done. That is what the discussion is about.

Any rule changes will not hit until next year at the earliest at the international level and will probably take an extra year before they are adopted at national level in most countries simply because that's how long it takes. Since the IFMAR rules are to a large extent the template used for the rules at both geography and country levels trickling down not only to mod classes but stock and super stock too I feel strongly that newbies definitely need to be taken into account as well, eventhough it will ultimately be decided by the country ruling bodies what rules will be adopted.

Let's fast forward for a second under the assumption we do nothing shall we? We are two years onwards and things have (literally) heated up even more. The batteries are even better and while the speedo's have improved, the limitations in the rules have prevented the type of progress needed. Moreover the speeds have grown so high that 19T is now as fast as mod was two years ago. People crash all the time because they and their cars cannot handle the speeds. If they don't crash they blow a motor or speedo. Having fun? I'm not.

And now the real fun begins. Someone starts a discussion on RCTech about the speeds and about the electronics not being able to handle the power the batteries can provide. This person raises the issue of the dropping numbers of participants at events and then angrily states: "How is it possible that the ruling bodies did not see this coming? There was a discussion on the subject two years ago when somehting could have been done to prevent this. Net result? This class is dying, fast. And now it is too late...".

You may disagree with me all you like, but then please do so looking forward a couple of years and not just at what is happening right now.

A final thing to think about. At the Worlds the drivers were coming of the track with about 1000Mah left in the batteries. Eventhough they used only about 75% of the potential power in the battery they had problems with thermal shutdowns, wires coming unsoldered, blown speedos and blown motors. Scary to think what will happen if somehow the extra 1000Mah gets used too. But then, this is what I see happening at the local level all the time. People managing to dump before the 5 minutes are up. Where does that 1000Mah go? It certainly isn't speed since they would be Worlds contenders if it were. So it goes into heat buildup. And that is exactly where the problems start...
Very good point Tony!
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