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Old 07-19-2006, 07:42 AM   #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srhand
At the top level this really isnt a problem, what Id propose is to let the pros have a set of rules (to create a true open class)
I was going to say that is exactly what coud be done, then it hit me that this puts yet another barrier up to try and move more drivers into mod.

Any driver that wants to try his hand at modified will not because of the specialized equipment required and a full on manufacturers ride will be a requirment.
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:46 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Final drive ratio is completely enforceable.... Every form of motorsports has a gear rule....
Are you going to require manufacturers to retool to some how stamp the teeth count on every gear (including diffs) in a place that can be seen and in an easily readible color.

Are you going to make a minimum teeth requirement on belts or ring/pinion gears as well?

What about minimum tire diameter for foams? are you going to consider it the rim diameter for the purpose or use a diameter of the largest foam tire available? not every place races pre-mounts as spec tires either...

I'm sure tearing down cars at the end of each round (and screwing up all the fine adjustments to get the car setup to finish top 3) or at the end of the day will go over great.

Its just not feasible. Wake up already.
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:57 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by rayhuang
I was going to say that is exactly what coud be done, then it hit me that this puts yet another barrier up to try and move more drivers into mod.

Any driver that wants to try his hand at modified will not because of the specialized equipment required and a full on manufacturers ride will be a requirment.

True! god this problem is a pain in the ass!!!

We could create another class (i know its been done before) F2 mod? Minimum and maximum turn? And there would be a breading ground for pro drivers? (then again this would dilute racing yet further!?)
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:01 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
All the international santioning bodies talk to each other. If there is a change is will be world wide.

I have talked to a couple of US non ROAR race promotors. They say they have always follwed a mix of IFMAR and ROAR rules and if they go 4 cell all independant races in the US will follow.

FYI, It seems like the loud few are the guys here against a change to fewer cells.
How about the loud few who want it. Adrian I know your smart and dont want to answer some of my replies because I am very vocal about disagreeing with you. But in this case where and who is the majority. As long as ther isnt an offical vote on this we wont know who is the minority. So stop building up the propaganda " the loud majority". You must have ESP or something because if you read this board it seems your out numberd in favor of staying 6 cell. Like I said lets put up a poll and see which way it goes. I am against it , but I love racing and will probly end up following the rules because where would I race. But the truth is that a few are the ones asking for this. Dont make ASSumptions because they are just that! SHOW US EVIDANCE!!!!
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:07 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by srhand
At club level racing is not so fast and doesnt have the heat problems as a lot of drivers will not gear there cars to the extent that it creates this problem (at my local club Ive had a v2 dynasty and its lasted weeks let alone runs). I think a lot of thought needs to be put in before a major change is put into place like changing from 6 to 4 cells as the amount of people running at club level will decrease hence the number of people racing will decrease!! As they would have to buy another car, (myself Id only race 12th scale and go back to off road in the summer!)
I don't know where you run but here in florida, I race every saturday on my local off-road or oval (same clay surface, very high bite, and i cycle to keep things fresh) and additionally up to 3 times a month on-road. At any of these events, at the very least, I start with a fresh cut motor. Its part of the maintenance schedule and level of competition here. While this is not the case everywhere, or is it, I'm sure there are more lax racing scenes and even tougher ones.. but i find it hard to believe people go to a race track to "bash around", you are there to race.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:14 AM   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason
Are you going to require manufacturers to retool to some how stamp the teeth count on every gear (including diffs) in a place that can be seen and in an easily readible color.

Are you going to make a minimum teeth requirement on belts or ring/pinion gears as well?

What about minimum tire diameter for foams? are you going to consider it the rim diameter for the purpose or use a diameter of the largest foam tire available? not every place races pre-mounts as spec tires either...

I'm sure tearing down cars at the end of each round (and screwing up all the fine adjustments to get the car setup to finish top 3) or at the end of the day will go over great.

Its just not feasible. Wake up already.
It isn't feasable? We know what the final drive ratio of an Xray is or a TC4 is and so on....

Foams get SMALLER and would raise the rollout as they wear, nothing to tech there...

You want to be like the big boys? How does Nascar fine people for improper gearing? They look.... We aren't talking about the club level here, we are talking about world wide events...

It'd be easy... Made up numbers here...

Minimum rollout with a 7 turn is 30mm... 6 turn 29mm... 5 turn 28mm... I'm sure final numbers would be more exact.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:18 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by BlackKat
Adrian: What about my writing about compromising the handling of the cars somehow. Would you not agree that the fact that our shoe-box sized cars being able to handle speeds of 40+mph without the compromisation of handling on a track is a bit scary?

I'm not speaking for JohnMatrix but what I believe he might be getting at is your talking about DUMBING DOWN RACING.

Instead of talent/experience being a factor, it's about $$$. Going to 4-cell is not going to help that problem because our cars can handle the speed they are traveling at now. If we slow them down further, they will handle even better which takes talent out of the picture further. If we take talent out of the equasion more, then $$$ is going to matter more.
You would have a hard time making the point that our cars handle too good to all the foam carpet racers up north. They think us rubber asphalt racers are just a notch better than running drift cars...lol!

There are several problems with limiting car traction and speed.


1. The more stuck a car is the more fun it is to drive. Cars with good traction are more consistant to drive and are more resistant to losing control during the bumping and rubbing of close racing.

2. If traction is limited with tires you have to use the throttle to control your car. I would say this would make driving an r/c car too difficult for 50% of all club racers. They would quit racing.

3. If you propose doing soemthinf to the kits (not the tires) how do you do it across all chassis brands? They are are all diffrent in suspension geometry to a degree

I say keep the traction, keep the good handling cars. Reduce the power and this will eliminate the heat issues.

Some say we will just motor up and be back where were were. I believe this is not possible given the limitations of the motors we use.

A 4 or 5 turn is very near the limit of a non functional DC motor. It is so horribly inefficient that all it does is get hot and it dosent really go anywere. You will find that 6 turns are faster than 4 or 5 turns for this reason.

As far as 4 cell optimized chassis sure it will happen but every manufacturer is on a 12 month new sedan cycle anyways so new car are coming no matter what batteries we run.

FYI, cars with 4 cells balance better than 6 cell cars as the weight of electronics is much closer to the weight of 4 cells (within ~15g) than 6 cells (~100g more weight on the batt side).

With a reduction in cell count you:

1. Eliminate our electronics issues.

2. Brushed motors last longer between rebuilds

3. Brushless motors and speedo wont thermal

4. 27T becomes a better novice class and pros will want to move out of it to get more speed.

5. 19T will get even bigger and be the major class

6. The transition to Mod will be easier for the 19T guys dues to improved driveablity and this will massivly increase the number of Mod racers.


If you are are concerend about sedans slowing down on 4 cells all you have to do is step up one class (stock to 19, 19 to Mod) from where you are now and you will be just as fast or faster than you were on 6 cells.

There is no "dumbing down" just doors that were shut by perceptions that 19T or Mod were too fast are opened for all racers.

The only class that will really be limited is the worlds smalled class...Mod and the mod guys are all for it.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:21 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
It isn't feasable? We know what the final drive ratio of an Xray is or a TC4 is and so on....
if its box stock perhaps.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:25 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Mason
I don't know where you run but here in florida, I race every saturday on my local off-road or oval (same clay surface, very high bite, and i cycle to keep things fresh) and additionally up to 3 times a month on-road. At any of these events, at the very least, I start with a fresh cut motor. Its part of the maintenance schedule and level of competition here. While this is not the case everywhere, or is it, I'm sure there are more lax racing scenes and even tougher ones.. but i find it hard to believe people go to a race track to "bash around", you are there to race.

The reason I can get away with just cleaning my motor is that speed is just not and issue due to the size of the track 13 meter straight (about 39 foot) its on carpet, indoors. The track is always very tight and twisty, so gearing is low (hence no ware). All this said we do have about six sponcered drivers every friday night so the level of competition is high.

I do think this club would go under though if they had to change to four cells.

For my Racing on a sunday I would use probly two fresh motors per meeting however this is on a lot bigger track with a straight that takes about 8-9 seconds to go down with a 7x1.

I'd say that both clubs are competitive against most in the world however both are a bit extreme in terms of what sort of power is needed.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:30 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
It isn't feasable? We know what the final drive ratio of an Xray is or a TC4 is and so on....

Foams get SMALLER and would raise the rollout as they wear, nothing to tech there...

You want to be like the big boys? How does Nascar fine people for improper gearing? They look.... We aren't talking about the club level here, we are talking about world wide events...

It'd be easy... Made up numbers here...

Minimum rollout with a 7 turn is 30mm... 6 turn 29mm... 5 turn 28mm... I'm sure final numbers would be more exact.
So guys with big wallets that can buy foams for every run so they can max out the roll out win every time...no thanks.

So then rubber tires...but wait...with the diffrences in final drives no two sedans can hit identical roll outs.

Ok, lets say all sedan CAN hit identical roll outs...the guy with the best battery voltage will get more rpm our of hit motors. Now we have a battery war with prices going through the roof.

So we run magical LiPo that are ALL IDENTICAL (yeah right)...guess what no two motors are identical. Magents can be glues in the can +/- 2deg, comms can be twisted +/- 2 deg on new motors, some motors are wound better than others, balanced better than others, just ARE better than others. Now you have to buy a dozen motors to find THE GOOD ONE and use all the others as paper weights.

This will also hand a monopoly to the motor manufacturer with the highest rpm motor. Right now in 19T you can be equally fast with Komodos (High rpm no torque) or Orion Elements (No RPM and high torque).

Fixed gearing has been tried hundres of times over the last 20 years and it NEVER WORKS.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:33 AM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason
if its box stock perhaps.
Still easy to tech... Unless you're using Prototype parts then you should be running in a Prototype Class.....
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:33 AM   #597
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Guys the main topic is the over heating of electronis why does the newbie scenerio keep coming into play? Look if the dang equipment is overheating then its time these manufactures beef up the equipment and build better products.
Speedos didnt have these proboles before with 7 cells and they handled upto ten, poeple did it back in the day when they had insane speed runs. Now they are half the size because they took half the stuff out of them to make them smaller.


On a differnt note stop contigancy payouts and 100% sponserd drivers in stock and we wont have the cost of racing as high, plus if they want to keep their sponsorships they need to move upto mod. Back in the day ( again ) we didnt have all these 100% sponserd geeks spoiling the fun by running new everything for a single run. "Manufactures", seems to be a trend here need to stop the craziness and bring in back to a point where 50% for a little help is ok in stock and 19t but leave the full rides where they belong " OPEN MODIFIED" !!!!!!!!

Also you want racing to grow! start holding events in public places like we used to so people can see it, malls, sporting events, what ever! You need exposure! Scca ( sports car club of america) sends out people to car shows or functions that envolve large gathering to recrute people. A simple display by some cubs at nascar, imsa, scca, cart and what ever form of racing will attract more "RACE" enthusiests into our sport that have racing knowledge.
People try it it will work. I got into racing when I was a kid because at my local full scale speedway, Hialeah speedway the local r/c car club held twice a year an exhibition inbetween the heats and the mains(intermission) and their club had over 200 memebrs, then the minute they got complaisant and using private tracks membership dropped below a 100 and eventually dissappeared. The formaula works people. Out of site out of mind, see it once you might forget about it see it five and it will sink in. Lets get roar and our "promotions guru" Adrian here to start getting a plan like this rolling and you see what happens.

Adrian I will promise if you get some of the info I need and I will go to events in my area and handout flyers. If we all did this our hobby would be in better shape membership wise.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:37 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by srhand
I do think this club would go under though if they had to change to four cells.
Why exactly would your club go under?

4 cells would improve the driveablity of your cars letting you drive harder more easily on your small track. The motors would last as long or longer. You could also motor up for more speed if you needed to with no increase in motor wear and still have better driveability.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:38 AM   #599
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I believe that sooner or later we'll have to move to 4 cells.Cars will get even faster and something has to be done.Anyways people are changing batteries every 4-6 months & changing cars too often.I cannot imagine them refusing to buy a different chassis to accept the 4-cell concept(they do it now to play with flex and defeering track conditions anyways).A move of fundamental importance is not allow the manufacturers to homologate cells for sanctioned racing so often.Adjust so that we can stay competitive with the same cells for at least one and a half year,or soon there will be too few people racing.
Might I ask why noone has really commented on Wild Cherry's proposal for the formation of a 2WD Sedan class?It could become a very popular class as 2WD buggy is for off road.Also:
-It is ideal for newcomers ,due to the car simplicity and lower cost ,as well as expert racers due to the skill needed.Drivers will play a more important role.
-This is a good reason to slow down on battery wars: 2wd sedan=more newcomers=more batteries sold so battery manufacturers/matchers are not loosing money and can accept the cell homologation/1.5 or 2 years rule.
-Since the cars will be simpler ,more smaller manufacturers can enter and make this a very interesting arena.
-Sedan design has remained mostly stagnant as far as new concepts/ideas are concerned.I believe that watching FWD vs RWD cars battle as in real BTCC will be very interesting and refreshing.
It seems that the introducting of 2wd sedan is attaining most of the goals simultaneously & I think it could be fitted to IFMAR/ROAR/EFRA Schedules as was the case when 1/10 pan car raced alongside with ISTC & 1/12.
I do not see people laughing and enjoying the hobby as in the past.Look at the videos/experiences of races 6-8 years ago...Things get more difficult financially and as far as time is concerned for everyone.Why not have a hobby that makes out more chilled out rather getting worried of having the latest and greatest every 2 months?Do we need any more of that stress in our lives?
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:42 AM   #600
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Adding that 4WD sedan must remain in 4-cell form ,not substituted by a potential 2wd sedan class.
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