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Old 07-10-2006, 06:31 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hughes
This the quote:

Running modified with a motor limit and 4 cell will be slow, with no motor limit we will use 4 turn motors, then according to the testing that has been done you are back were you started, in fact 4 cell 4 turn is as harder on cells and motors than 6 cell 7 turn if not more so.

So what is the future? Brushless will move on but will still have overheating issues as people want to find the edge. If the majority move is to brushless then the motor tuners need to be considered. How much further can brush motors be developed?
I take it that you've never seen a 4-cell mod oval car run with a 6 or a 7 turn motor. They are very fast. Going to 4-cell was the best move that the oval community ever made. As was said above, everything lasts longer and the racing is much more enjoyable. Embrace change, don't fear it!
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:00 PM   #47
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wouldn't going to a 6 or 7 minute race force people into more conservative gearing and lower temps?
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:15 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
wouldn't going to a 6 or 7 minute race force people into more conservative gearing and lower temps?
No..not really and it would make top level batteries a commodity that battery companies could name their price for. The fastest guys would throttle drive (not use full throttle often) like you used to do years ago in 1/12th. This is really not fun for novices as this skill is hard to master.

Derek - Your college professors would be proud of you for remembering all those concepts but at the same time disappointed in your inaccurate patchwork application of them. You are applying orange theory on an apple problem
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by DerekB
If you can sell "slow" let me know....I know lots of companies sell speed.
It's not the job of rule makers to sell slow or fast or anything. It's the job of rule makers to come up with an appropriate set of rules for racing - and then for manufacturers to work out how to be fast within those rules.

It is nonsense to talk about modified class racing being "unlimited". There is nothing 'unlimited' about it at all. There is an extensive rule book of limits in terms of size, weight, electronic devices, motor sizes and specifications, battery capacity and voltage etc. Modified is definitely not 'unlimited'.

The same applies for F1 - it is anything but unlimited, and from time to time the rule makers have taken steps to slow things down. Can you imagine how fast F1 would be by now if they were still running full slick tyres, turbo motors that even in the '80s were pushing out 1000bhp?

If running 5 or 4 cell helps prevent people from hurting parts and makes long term enjoyment of the hobby more feasible, then bring it on. Modified motors with 4 or 5 cells will still be the fastest class in the sport (faster than 27t or 19t with 6 cells) and the best drivers will still compete. Manufacturers will redesign their products and still be advertising them as "fast".

The 'problem' appears to be that all over the world regular club modified racers (not just world champs contenders) are hurting parts. 7t brushed motors are blowing apart, brushless motors are going into thermal shutdown etc. When the equation changes as much as it has with batteries over the past 1-2 years, other parts of the equation have to change as well.

I hope like anything ifmar has the cahoona's necessary to make a change like this. It will give TC racing a new lease on life and make it sustainable. Right now people are leaving because it costs too much and too many parts are being hurt. Slowing things down a little will help a lot.
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:30 PM   #50
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Again, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RUN MODIFIED. Period.

Club races here and in most places are stock and now 19-turn.

4-cell oval is just as silly fast and seeing 6-cell oval at the birds even faster...they all still break, imagine that.

I have never, ever, ever heard somebody say "I don't want to race" because it's too fast. NEVER. And in electric they race stock, which is slow. We're trying to slow down from pressure of equipment not because it makes better racing.

We can have $500 touring cars, $600 chargers, batteries with no price cap, and just motors with a price limit? I don't get it. SLOW isn't the savior of anything. How about you make the Worlds all stock and we'll see how many stock motors are used. We'll all be cutting comms down to nothing and looking for the most expensive, highest voltage battery, and I bet we'll still see broken cars.

And I'll ask again, and this isn't directed soley for Adrian (he just posts more) why do you sell a 70mph RTR and worry about racers breaking parts in races? Those seem to be more oranges vs apples to me?
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:44 PM   #51
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Nobody is saying you "have" to race modified. But lots of people do. At club level, at regional level, at national level. Modified is not just about the worlds and the national champs, but everyday racers who want to go faster than 27t or 19t and as fast as the rules of the day allow. Modified is also not about people with unlimited budgets who can throw a wind and destroy their new 7t motor and go ask the sponsor for another one.

Easing things back a little is good for just about everybody - manufacturers, tuners, drivers, those paying for their racing equipment, track builders etc etc etc.

Now is a good opportunity to ease the pressure a little. If not now - then when? When brushless motors at 3.5 or 2.5 turns are producing even more power? When batteries hit or exceed 5000mah and 1.25 volts per cell? When LIPO is legalised and speeds increase further? When modified racing has dissapeared up its own exhaust pipe because it is too fast and too expensive for even the wealthy among us?

R/C is a participant hobby. Modified class racing is a participant class - not a manufacturers or elite class.

Unfortunately you won't hear people saying " I don't want to race because it's too fast". You might hear them say "i don't want to race because it is too expensive or it has become harder and harder and harder". Mostly likely you won't hear them say anything, they'll just have sold their gear and gone to another hobby.

Easing back a little will help nearly everybody and hurt nearly no-one.
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:49 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
And I'll ask again, and this isn't directed soley for Adrian (he just posts more) why do you sell a 70mph RTR and worry about racers breaking parts in races? Those seem to be more oranges vs apples to me?
Racers wants and needs - Apples

Bashers wants and needs - Oranges

Also, everyone ...stop saying 4 cells is slower. With lighter cars and a little tuning lap times are almost identical. You will have less rip out of the corners but right now 19T and Open Mod Sedans can light up thier tires and spin out exiting corners. Even the carpet foam tire mod guys can light up thier tires.

4 or 5 cells will make our gear last longer, run better,more driveable and is not much slower. Give the motor and car guys a year and I be 4 cell will be exactly the same a 6 cell lap time wise or faster.
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Old 07-10-2006, 08:32 PM   #53
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Your talking apples and oranges there! You cant compare the two, touring cars pull more amperage, weigh more, and aren't at a constant speed compared to oval.

A 4 wheel drive touring car at 53 ounces will kill a motor quicker and be a real cow compared to a 32 ounce 2 wheel drive car . Yeah I know we can adjust the minimum weight. But I got to see a few years ago in our state series a class for 4cell pancar with 19t motors and the cars were slow as crap coming out the corners 6 cell stock touring cars pulled harder!

Also since it seems all the electronics seem to be failing or overheating then its time the electronics manufactures raise their products performance levels.

Look when I started in the mid eighties like others here didnt have internet so r/c tech was none exsitant all off us had no help other then the instrunction manuals, veteran racers, or hobby store. We were imaginative with the things that we made because most of the accesories that exist now werent around! We were basically racing in the stone age. Imagine the people that had Model T's telling the people driving the V8 Edsel "that car is too fast". Look where we are at now!
Most of the veterans now are us and there are no new racers coming in not because its to expensive, Kids have alot more money then we did. So why arent picking up R/C? because they have play stations, internet, motorized scooters, cell phones, paint ball , and all sorts of electronic game. Basically if it dont have an " Enter " tab kids dont want it.


Why dumb it down. Hobbiest take their toys home, enthusiast race them!
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Old 07-10-2006, 08:37 PM   #54
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Maybe the power is not the problem? Perhaps it's the car's ability to handle that power is the root of the problem? Offroad also has those new batteries etc.. But the 2wd offroad WC was supposedly won with 5 cells connected and a 14t motor...
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Old 07-10-2006, 08:40 PM   #55
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7 Cells?
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Old 07-10-2006, 09:12 PM   #56
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sounds like no matter what the rules, the sponsored guys are going to find a way to push the envelope and stress whatever equipment is in the car anyhow... so why change it so the top .25% don't over heat their car in the mains? sounds like that is part of setting up the car is to make it so it lasts 5 measley minutes.... in every form of racing you can find ways of going faster if finishing the race didn't matter.... maybe spec tires with limited traction is the answer.. that is what keeps offroad sane.. the fact that more hp is a detriment...
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Old 07-10-2006, 09:21 PM   #57
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I thought thats what the different classes were for? Not everyone has to run open mod.
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Old 07-10-2006, 09:33 PM   #58
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Is it a possible to make more advanced mod motors if the retail price was raised??? Most mods now retail for $95.00 but street is $65-$70. What if a "newer" generation of brushed mods could sell at $95.00 street price? Would this allow changes needed to make the motors and brushes last longer? Just curious.

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Old 07-10-2006, 09:40 PM   #59
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Getting back to the original topic title somewhat, the future of touring car racing surely depends on having people to race them.
I know at my own club the numbers had dropped off considerably when our club and local series dropped a 10 turn mod limit and went open mod. Our club the following year decided to go back to stock only as the touring car class and the numbers quickly increased again.
Maybe we have to find the reasons why most regular racers find mod (especially open mod) so difflcult to run week in week out?
It really can't be just money can it? Back in the early to mid 90's stuff cost pretty much the same amount as it does now, and I like to think that most of you out there earn a little more today than you did back then !

Great topic !!
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Old 07-10-2006, 10:07 PM   #60
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if things are overheating, how about the providers of these crazy motors and batteries tone it down a bit? why limit cells vs. limit motor winds?

most cars are designed around 6 cell packs. other components are located where they are in order to keep keep the car balanced. reducing the cell count would make every TC on the market that doesn't have the battery down the centerline obselete.

also, was there a proposed reduction in minimum weight to go along with this proposed cell reduction?
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