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Old 07-18-2006, 04:45 AM   #541
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This thread certainly has a lot of people leaving their marks, so I thought I would as well.
To start off with, I would bet that when the discussion mentions car damage, it would relate electrical more so than physical. Anyone can break a car by smashing it.

IFMAR: Now don't expect to see any rules changed in the next 2 years as they don't have to worry about this problem till the 2008 on road worlds. The 2007 off road worlds won't really be an issue as the standard has been already set.

EFFRA: well we have at least another 6 months before we see any result from them, and there is no garantee they will change anything.

The On Road Worlds: After the 2004 Worlds at Kississimee, I read a quote from what I asumed was a driver there, "the batteries and motors the pro's use are closer to the retail ones than ever before" Obviously he was supplied factory motors and batteries as the retail versions were never going to match the top drivers equipment. Even to the point that Oscar J threw away an arm from a retail motor and asked the racer involved "what are you doing with this rubbish" Another driver I knew got hold of some low end factory batteries and could not believe the difference between them and the best retail version he could buy.

The electrical failure problems we are discussing here existed back in 2004.As an observer at this event, I watch the top factory teams replace speed controls for each race in fear of the potential damage from the previous run.
Now the general public is now able to buy batteries of the equal to what the factory guys had 2 years ago. They are now seeing the issues that the factory racers had experienced back then.

2006 worlds: lets have a close look at the electronics the factory guys used?
I bet you can not buy anything like the speed controls and motors the top 20 or 30 drivers were using. I know af a driver that finished mid field of the 140 odd and was supplied with electronics that are not available to the average Joe racer.
These componets may look the same hidden away under the fans. I bet they were changed very regularly, like every run for the top 10 drivers at least. Who at that level would risk a world championship because of the failure of equipment.

On a final note, remember were the design of the brushed motor originated from a DC 5 volt motor, I remember this from my RC12 days. This design has been held at that level by the the world bodies for near 30 years, with a high speed AC 3 phase motor only recently being allowed. The batteries have now pushed the envelope well past the electronics.
Think of it like putting a 454 blown Chev in a Tata road car with no other modifications.
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Last edited by fastolfart; 07-18-2006 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:56 AM   #542
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gotta love those conspiracy theories.... !

-Look at the lap times of the top 50 drivers at the 06 worlds and the heat results.
-Take in consideration the seemingly huge technological advantage you describe; top level racers have using the "commercially unavailable stuff", those "amazing batteries" and such, if i read you well, they should be a good second faster than anyone else.. if not more... heck..they should be lapping the whole field every 5 Mins !!!
- Actual results: Minute difference in lap times, probably better attributed to better managing of the tires than horespower or any electronic black magic.

There might exist electronics with some matched components, this has been around since the 90's worlds... a way to gain 5%-10% more reliablity which is always commercially safe when racing a high profile event. What s the big deal ?

At top level racing, horspower is nowadays fairly even in the top 40 racers.
At the december carpet world cup in CRF in dec 05, running under 12T efra rules, i had as much power as anyone in the mains, and lo and behold, boy, did i suck at that event!!

Last edited by Patriiick; 07-18-2006 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:58 AM   #543
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he's not the only one who's heard similar stories to that you know...
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Old 07-18-2006, 05:18 AM   #544
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Going back 6 or so years I raced a 27t championship and finshed 3rd overall. The craze then for power were sanyo 2000 nicads.

Motors were pretty equal in power output. I missed the first 3 dropout rounds too,neither did I have factory matched this and that cells. They were pretty good,but not top spec.

Gives you food for thought though how things are these days. I'd love to have top spec handout motors and top end cells etc to use and see how the comparison is to shop stuff...
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Old 07-18-2006, 06:26 AM   #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King-G

the use of 4turn and 5 turn motors! that is rediculous, and surely we will face the same problems we have now..thrown winds due to excessive RPM, arms going out of balance, and heat due to excessive current draw.
No, as you have less voltage you will have lower rpm and this will reduce the chance of winds being thrown and the heat generated will be less. Less volts = less power generated by the motor.

Over the weekend I ran an Orion 6 turn with 4 cells in my TC4 geared at 7.5 (same as my Checkpoint 8 turn on 6 cells) on the same track layout and with the same tyres as I had run at the previous weeks club meeting. No receiver pack either.

The track temperature was 47C (117F).
Motor temperature was 27C(81F) before I went out.
When I was finshed the run the motor temperature was 70C(158F) and I was not running any cooling fans.
A fellow racer's stock was hitting 90C(194F) with fans!
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:47 AM   #546
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Mike, how did the laptimes compare with the 8T and 6 cells?
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Old 07-18-2006, 08:06 AM   #547
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Hi Tony

I was using some original GP3700 unmatched cells - I was hoping to have had something more up-to-date but they hadn't arrived.
Pacewise, I had run an average of 16.53 on the same track layout run at West London last weekend (Kerswell track) with 8T/6 cells in TC-4. On the day I was on the same pace as the quick 19 turn boys at around 17 seconds and the TQ average for 19 turns the previous week had been 16.31 (yes, faster than my mod).
I'm pretty certain with newer cells that I would have been down to 16.75/80 bracket. I will try and have another test this weekend but it will be on a different track layout though.
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Old 07-18-2006, 08:30 AM   #548
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I find this all interseting... The debate over 6 cells vs 4 cells.

So why do we just make it so you can run either 4 cells, at a lower weight or 6 cells. Find a weight that is competive to 6 cells for 4 cells. After all the speed as everyone is saying is not the issue, it is the heat...

Also I find it interesting for some (not all) the track owners not willing to run longer heats for elec. but they are willing run longer heats for nitro.. What is with this? Run Elec. heats at 7 mins, this is still less then the 10 min heats for nitro, and a 10min main. I really do not think is important that your heats are the same length as the main. In fact I think this would make this very interesting.

Just a couple of thoughts...

I'm new to this hobby and with all this going on, I'm ready to get a 1/12 and say good bye to TC until this all gets worked out. Or go to 1/8 off road, and I really hate dirt racing...
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Old 07-18-2006, 08:30 AM   #549
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:37 AM   #550
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Did any of you factory guys (Rick, AdrianM) read my last two posts? Give me some feedback.

It's not nescesarily the amount of power in the car thats the problem. It also has to do with the fact that the cars we have now can handle it. If we could somehow compromise the handling of the cars, then we would have to back off more and not push our equipment as far as we currently are.

The only advantages I see in going to 4-cell for anyone is the delay of LiPo for the manufactuers....
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:49 AM   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
Ok. So all the "elite" drivers that are fed up with replacing their speedo/motor every heat or two should move to 19T? Works for me. Does it also work for those in 19T that want to go fast but don't move to mod because they hate losing?
Have to race with the elite at the Nats anyways, so why not? In the end it will make me a better driver and that is a worthy goal. Every time I have raced with those guys I have learned a LOT! Ask our locals....LOL
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:56 AM   #552
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As a "Comparative" test I would like to see a 6/7 Turn mod run for 5 minutes with an older speed control. One of the ones that had TONS of FETS and were rated for 4-10 cells. The Novak Tempest comes to mind. I wonder how that beast would hold up to race conditions. The only reason I mention it is because it seems that ever since the Manufacturers shrank the size of speed controls the power/heat handling capabilities have been compromised. It seems like they are using fewer (higher quality) fets to do the same job.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:00 AM   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackKat
Well, isn't that a good thing? It seems like any person who can dump money into their car and run a clean line can get a spot in the A main of stock (atleast at the club level in my area)

I don't think electronics are the problem. The cars are. Since the cars handle so well, we are having to beat each other by pushing our equipment further than the next guy.

Make driving skill matter more, and equipment matter less.
How about doing that. . .and separating setup skill (including motor setup. . .) from driving skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
Take subaru in the WRC for example. David Lapworth,Tecnical Director of Prodrive said in one of his interviews sometimes they have compromised the reliability of their cars to get more performance.
While that is true, generally he's referring to races where reliability isn't a huge issue, such as in Japan or some of the tarmac rallies. Citroen, however, shamed Subaru by winning consistently with a car that didn't break down (and not all due to Seb's skill (which is astounding) - he put those cars through hell. . .) - they built for reliability first because to finish first. . .

Their goal is to build a car that will run to the finish. That should be RC mfg's goal as well. . .
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:08 AM   #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
As a "Comparative" test I would like to see a 6/7 Turn mod run for 5 minutes with an older speed control. One of the ones that had TONS of FETS and were rated for 4-10 cells. The Novak Tempest comes to mind. I wonder how that beast would hold up to race conditions. The only reason I mention it is because it seems that ever since the Manufacturers shrank the size of speed controls the power/heat handling capabilities have been compromised. It seems like they are using fewer (higher quality) fets to do the same job.
This would be an interesting test. Speedos don't need to be as small as they are although I understand that in the electronics field, smaller is more desirable.

I also would be willing to be that with 4-cells, current speedos would be considered "overkill" and that you would see even smaller versions released specifically with lower voltage 4-cell use in mind. Who knows how they would hold up.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:27 AM   #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
As a "Comparative" test I would like to see a 6/7 Turn mod run for 5 minutes with an older speed control. One of the ones that had TONS of FETS and were rated for 4-10 cells. The Novak Tempest comes to mind. I wonder how that beast would hold up to race conditions. The only reason I mention it is because it seems that ever since the Manufacturers shrank the size of speed controls the power/heat handling capabilities have been compromised. It seems like they are using fewer (higher quality) fets to do the same job.
The current Speedo has more FETs(units) inside, but those FETs are smaller(a lot smaller)than the older one(Tempest,LRP IPC etc). I still have my Novak cyclone, which is for 4-10 cells and 480 Amps rating I may give it a try this weekend.
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