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Old 07-17-2006, 10:07 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by tonyv
Are you arguing there is no problem? Or are you arguing that we should not fix the problem because the fix will not be permanent and we will have the same problem again in a few years time? The former I can understand. In that case we simply disagree that there is a problem. The latter I don't get. Isn't it better to postpone the problems by a few years instead of letting them grow out of hand now?
I would say that currently the elite have a problem. I also have the solution. Let market forces bear on the manufacturers. If the speedo can't handle the load, no one will buy it. When someone makes one that can, they get my money. Simple. Same goes with motors. If a car does not handle no one will buy it. Build one that does and you will clean up. Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel when a proven solution is at hand?
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:10 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Scrubb
Motors will be redesigned for 4 cell use, current full stack armatures don't reach full saturation, you'll start seeing modified armatures just like stock motor armatures; short stacks, slots - less heat disapating material. 36, 45 degrees timing. Those are all legal modifications to modified motors, you think that a short stack, slotted armature 4 turn motor at 40 degrees timing wont run hot on four cells? Put on some brushes that make more power at the expense of wear and gear it to just make runtime. Do you really think you'll be using the same 6 cell based motors and speed controls?

Rick Howart, how about your take on that?
I don't know whether that will result in problems. That is why we need testing before proposing changes to the rules like Rick and others have argued. I personally don't believe it is as simple as just going to 4 cells. Such a change will lead to other changes that need to be made too to get to a consistent set of rules and prevent unwanted side-effects.

But let's turn your argument around. You've indicated multiple things that could be done to increase speed within the current rules. At some point in time someone will do that and our problems will get even bigger. Unless we make rule changes to prevent this. The limiting factor ultimately is whether a change will still help to increase speed. Running 40 degree timing won't help. It will make the motor slower rather than quicker (although other magnets could change that). All it currently does is increase the current draw and thus heat. The point is that right now if you tune for maximum speed the electronics will not be able to handle it. What I, and apparantly others, want is to be able to tune for maximum speed (whatever that is depending on the rules) without frying the speedo, battery and/or motor. Is that an unreasonable goal to set?
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:19 AM   #483
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I've read a lot of the post here,
I do know how everyone loves power, so do I.

I race oval 4 cell and on road 6 cell.

The difference that I can when I run 4 cell is, the car is much lighter, low end grunt off the line is not there. However the top speeds are about the same if not faster, with the introduction of the newer cell, 3800's and especially the 4200's. When running a high speed track such as a velo drome, then the lighter weight may allow the car to bounce, lift and get air born. longer travel suspension and proper weigh distribution become more of a facter here.

Brush and com life is longer, gearing is critical, under gear you do slower, over you go slower. If you try to push it with a big gear it wont go faster, and would probably stress the esc, but to go faster you will be forced to run a smaller pinion.

I would imagine on road with all the new hi-tech light weight touring cars performance should be very close to 6 cell. the lighter weight should help handling. tire wear, motor cost and 4 cell batteries are cheaper.
I would love to run 6 cell oval, however I love the lower cost and the cars are still fast. so I believe with the 4200/4300's and lipo 4 cell, touring racing will not suffer, nor will you be burning up any more equipment than you do now.

I hope my experience running 4 cell oval helps answer some questions.

I enjoy racing either way as long as everyone is on the same page.

later

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Old 07-17-2006, 10:21 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Advil
I would say that currently the elite have a problem.
Ok, fair enough. I believe it is not just what you refer to as the "elite". On clubraces I see people that have problems with temp shutoff when running brushless. Others that are blowing 19t and mod motors. Entry level drivers have less of these problems but then they have crashes all over the place because they cannot handle the power and break their car all the time (a problem the "elite" does not have so much ). If this is happening at clubraces now, how bad will it be next year if we don't do anything? Or the year after or the year after that which is the time frame that any suggested rules changes would probably start to play at local level...

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:34 AM   #485
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like I said, I don't care wether its 6 or 4 cell, i'll still have fun with my freinds, just don't change the rules for the wrong reason. And be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:42 AM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nagatahawk
I've read a lot of the post here,
I do know how everyone loves power, so do I.

I race oval 4 cell and on road 6 cell.

The difference that I can when I run 4 cell is, the car is much lighter, low end grunt off the line is not there. However the top speeds are about the same if not faster, with the introduction of the newer cell, 3800's and especially the 4200's. When running a high speed track such as a velo drome, then the lighter weight may allow the car to bounce, lift and get air born. longer travel suspension and proper weigh distribution become more of a facter here.

Brush and com life is longer, gearing is critical, under gear you do slower, over you go slower. If you try to push it with a big gear it wont go faster, and would probably stress the esc, but to go faster you will be forced to run a smaller pinion.

I would imagine on road with all the new hi-tech light weight touring cars performance should be very close to 6 cell. the lighter weight should help handling. tire wear, motor cost and 4 cell batteries are cheaper.
I would love to run 6 cell oval, however I love the lower cost and the cars are still fast. so I believe with the 4200/4300's and lipo 4 cell, touring racing will not suffer, nor will you be burning up any more equipment than you do now.

I hope my experience running 4 cell oval helps answer some questions.

I enjoy racing either way as long as everyone is on the same page.

later

wn
You can't compare Oval and On Road, they are 2 completely different cars.

Oval doesn't need the Off the line grunt that a On Road does. Oval accellerates once, On road can accellerate 10 time or more than that depending on the latout of the track.

Don't bring Off Road into this either. When I raced off road in the 80's and 90's we raced on dirt, we ran back tires with huge knobbies and never had a problem putting the power down. Off Road these days has become On Road with jumps. The tracks are so packed down it's like running on concrete. Off Road should just switch to running dirt oval tires, they'd probably have more traction....
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:01 AM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
On clubraces I see people that have problems with temp shutoff when running brushless.
That is exactly why I have not bought one yet. I believe the technology is in its infacy with the R/C Car crowd and do not wish to waste my money on something that will fail. I will buy one (no or low maintenance is very appealing) when one is built that has the power of the 4.5 without the reliability problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
Others that are blowing 19t and mod motors.
I have done the same. It is when I am pushing to the limit. If others are doing this it is because they are pushing the limits or are not knowlegable enough to gear/setup their motor properly (I am speaking of at the club level of course). This is part of LEARNING how to tune. We all have gone through this. Changing how many cells we run will not change this very basic fact. People that are learning the ropes will smoke speed controls and motors until they gain experience. Why didn't anyone complain when RVP was taken out of most performance speed controls? How many new guys smoked a $150.00+ of equipment learning that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
I am hoping that the manufactures are willing and able to step up to the problem and overcome it. If they want my money they will rise to the occasion......if not, someone else will. Simple.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:19 AM   #488
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I'm silent for few page see how people comeout share their opinion.

Like I said few page before, just think about 1/12. Is 1/12 would still alive today if we didnt move from 6cells to 4cells? What makes touring so different that we can't change from 6cells to 4cells like 1/12 did?

If 4cells 19T is same speed with 6cells 27T, why current 6cells 27T driver don't stepup to 4cells 19T?

If 4cells modify is easier and cheaper to drive, why 19T driver don't stepup to modify?

Some complain about 4cells 27T would be too slow to have fun is very interesting, why not just stepup if you think it's too slow for you?
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:31 AM   #489
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The # of cells had nothing to do with the demise of 12th, the new sedans that could be run anywhere, not just on a prepared track, did. The same holds true for 10th scale pan. Well now we've come to the point where these new Touring Cars are no longer suited to be run anywhere either.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:33 AM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttso
I'm silent for few page see how people comeout share their opinion.

Like I said few page before, just think about 1/12. Is 1/12 would still alive today if we didnt move from 6cells to 4cells? What makes touring so different that we can't change from 6cells to 4cells like 1/12 did?

If 4cells 19T is same speed with 6cells 27T, why current 6cells 27T driver don't stepup to 4cells 19T?

If 4cells modify is easier and cheaper to drive, why 19T driver don't stepup to modify?

Some complain about 4cells 27T would be too slow to have fun is very interesting, why not just stepup if you think it's too slow for you?
We simply do not know what the status of 1/12 or oval would be had they not gone to 4-cells. They are not dead classes, but they are by no means as big as they once were.

People's unwillingness to step up a class is due to their lack of competitiveness at the next level. In my opinion, a 19-turn 6-cell driver will be no more competitive in 4-cell modified than he would be in 6-cell modified now.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:40 AM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
You can't compare Oval and On Road, they are 2 completely different cars.

Oval doesn't need the Off the line grunt that a On Road does. Oval accellerates once, On road can accellerate 10 time or more than that depending on the latout of the track.

Don't bring Off Road into this either. When I raced off road in the 80's and 90's we raced on dirt, we ran back tires with huge knobbies and never had a problem putting the power down. Off Road these days has become On Road with jumps. The tracks are so packed down it's like running on concrete. Off Road should just switch to running dirt oval tires, they'd probably have more traction....
Last time I ran Oval, I accelerated 88 times in 4 minutes.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:53 AM   #492
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I myself saw some 6cells IB4200 with 8T motor 1/12 running on track. The car is way too fast unless you running on GP track (and they did). You can outrun 1/8 GP if you can handle it. However, even you can handle it, the parts wear is extremely fast. Something like 1mm less ride height every pack in asphalt. It's just not health for hobby.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:55 AM   #493
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you know , I have always felt 1/10 Sedan is just a fad....

Just a few more year`s and it looks like I`ll be right...

too expensive , and the car`s can handle a 1 turn if they would`nt flame up in smoke...


Its the Sedan`s design ....
not the battery`s,
or motor`s,

that have put the hurt on sedan racing...

a more Betta Sedan design is whats needed....

redesign Sedan for 2w drive

no more melt down`s & everyone will still go fast enought....

in other word`s....


Sedan needs a buggy like off-road has !

leave the 4w design`s alone , they are the elite ...

just make a new class >>>> 2w Sedan
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:13 PM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
Last time I ran Oval, I accelerated 88 times in 4 minutes.
You aren't accellerating out of a hairpin, you are carrying much more corner speed than you do in on road. Yes I know there are sweepers where you can carry corner speed too....

How about we make Mod 4 cell and leave the spec classes alone????
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:30 PM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
How about we make Mod 4 cell and leave the spec classes alone????

I car kit optimized for 4-cell would be useless to a person who wanted to run 6-cell classes. Manufacturers wouldnt stand for that and I supoose consumers as well.
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