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Old 07-17-2006, 03:52 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by modeltech
Part of any racing involves understanding and working with your motors. In electric modified this is compounded by having both gearing and timing to consider. If you run with unsuitable settings then you will blow your motors, and I am pretty sure most if not ALL drivers know this!

It is therefore somewhat strange that the NITRO drivers who get their motors fuel mix or mixture wrong can melt motors with almost the same frequency, yet I don't hear them blaming the equipment..........

Winning is finishing first, where FINISHING is the key word. Stop passing the buck and spend more time learning about your equipment and working with it!

We have been running in 30+C temps here in the UK for a while, we run a spec mod motor in one championship to level the playing field. Drivers are supplied these motors set to 0 deg timing, provided with a motor timing jig and told not to go above Xdeg since the motor current draw rises exponentially above this point and you will suffer motor problems if you ignore this advice. Those that have spent time to learn and understand are fast, very fast, and most importantly they finish! The depth of their pockets has absolutely nothing to do with it! Those that don't heed the warnings either blow a winding because they turn up the timing, or are fast in the early part of the run but they fade out badly in the last 30 secs. I would also add that running on tarmac with a track surface temp of in excess of 55degC also makes one sensitive to taking care of your tyres in an equally sensitive manner.

Drivers don't blame the motors or their gear, as they full well know and accept that it is under their control and of THEIR doing.

I find a lot of this discussion and comments seem focussed on dumbing down the technicals skills that are part of this sport, along with understanding handling and developing of car set-up skills - that are as big a part of the sport and long may it remain so. I for one do not welcome the simplifying of the sport.........if you reduce the technical skills in the sport to almost just that of "arriving and taking part" I am afraid you will probably lose people at a greater rate than they take part, it simply becomes a fad thing to do, or have done, rather than a sport to develop your skills in and be something personally challenging and satisfying.

I don't think you quite understand what i said earlier...
I'm fully aware that high timing/gearing will kill a motor, hence why part of my post acknowledged that fact.

the problem nowadays, is that the 'fine line' is too damn fine, get it slightly wrong and you toast a motor. with the older cells if you got the motor wrong, you'd dump, and that was it, no $50 for a new armature, you just dumped at 4 mins.

your example of the controlled motor is all well and good, but where are these guidelines? how much is X deg timing? are the worlds run with a control motor @ "X" degrees timing?

IFMAR rules are in place so that the world has something to aspire to, the reason we follow these rules at club events is so that when we want to move up to the next level of competition - be it state, national, or international, we apply the knowledge we already have....

control motors are not the answer, modified is an OPEN class, and should remain as such, restricting motors makes it a spec class, changing to 4 cells gives the drivers new constraints in which to work to find the best method to go quickly... but these constraints at the moment are not even, the cells we use have developed way beyond what our motors have.
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Old 07-17-2006, 03:55 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by modeltech
Part of any racing involves understanding and working with your motors .......///////....... rather than a sport to develop your skills in and be something personally challenging and satisfying.
I agree all what You write 110%
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Old 07-17-2006, 04:19 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by DerekB
If it's really about "racing" and the "club" guy...how many club racer have issues burning stuff out?
Statistically, less than at the Worlds.

But there's plenty of 'club' racers trueing comms and replacing brushes every run!

Believe it or not, but people like oscar, Josh, Reto and Rick DO think about Joe Average from time to time...
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:07 AM   #469
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Yes they do. More to the point they ackknowledge equipment is part of the problem even if (some of) their customers accept the fact that they themselves pushed it beyond the limits. I for one am very happy that the manufacturors take responsibility too.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:07 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by speedxl
So if your crashing, burning, and spending too much. SLOW YOUR SELF DOWN.
We've seen this kind of statement a couple of times now and I do agree with the basic sentiment. But... First of all, some, including you, have argued that mod should become faster rather than slower, it being the top class and all. Now you want them to slow down themselves if the equipment would otherwise fail. Quess what,they won't. So they'll break and we get Worlds finals with maybe only three cars finishing because the rest pushed too hard. Which in F1 translates to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by floodo1
why didnt you tell that to the Michelin runners at last years USGP???? They could have just slowed in turn 13 (is that it?) and then their tires wouldnt fail.
Telling people to slow down themselves will not work for the simple reason that those that would already do (I run soft springs on some tracks for that reason) and those that don't now won't do that in future either.

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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Go right ahead and drop the 2 cells.... I can tell you that I won't be buying a 4 cell TC and I'm sure there are many more who feel like I do.
Yes, that is exactly one of the key considerations. There will be people that will not like a 4-cell format, or any other change for that matter. But don't forget that there are many others that want to be able to push the car to its limit and won't particularly like it if that means breaking the electronics. For instance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaybo
anyone who suggests 'gearing down' as a serious option for frying equipment needs their head read. it's not an option, if i gear down, and the guy with the slightly bigger wallet next to me on the drivers stand doesnt, he'll win... i'm not one who really cares that much about winning (it'd be nice to win, but i dont _expect_ to win)... but if it's not even a competition i dont see the point in even racing.
What will people like Jaybo do? Slow down of their own accord taking all the fun out of racing with the other guy, or simply quit racing altogether? I think the latter is what we also need to worry about, especially considering the experiences we've had with other classes at both national and international levels in the past.

BTW, note that in this post I focus on the problem of overheating electronics, not on the driveability angle. These are separate problems athough their possible solutions will affect both.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:08 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Scrubb
I doubt stock and 19 turn touring car class are having reliability or overheating issues, so I doubt having 7.2 volt rated batteries are the problem.
They are. How often do you have to skim the commutator in these classes if you want to be competitive? Stock and 19T are not so hard on the speedo, true, but very hard on the motors themselves. I've seen smoking examples of both Stock and 19T.

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Originally Posted by Scrubb
I also doubt that privateer modified class touring car racers are having problems as they know they cannot afford to push their equipment that hard.
They have problems too. Many privateer drivers are just as competitive as the sponsored drivers. Their goal is often to beat the sponsored driver every once in a while and maybe even become a sponsored driver themselves. To get there you need to push to the limit and to find the limit you have to push beyond it at least every once in a while. Having said that, you are right that the top drivers have more problems but don't forget that they also tend to run new stuff a few months before it hits the market. If they have problems now, privateers will potentially have the same problems a couple of months later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by modeltech
It is therefore somewhat strange that the NITRO drivers who get their motors fuel mix or mixture wrong can melt motors with almost the same frequency, yet I don't hear them blaming the equipment..........
Huh? I hear them all the time about the cost of motors, the need to have several new ones each season to stay competitive etc. etc. I think in this case the discussion started more at local level and in The Netherlands has resulted in a steady decline in the number of racers. It is EXACTLY the same type of discussion that we are having.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:10 AM   #472
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Default Info from 2005 EFRA meeting

Hello All

Just a bit more info for you, and this is NOT my opinion its just what happened at the 2005 EFRA meeting (The Federation that organises the European Championship and therefore the rules to which most European countries run their meetings).

A discussion took place regarding the speed & level of equipment being damaged in touring cars.

The general feeling was that the cars had too much available power/capacity/energy (call it what you will) and were either too quick or damaging too much equipment depending upon your viewpoint.
NOTE - this wasn't the opinion of everybody there, but did refelect the majority.

The thoughts on running longer races was that it would make the meetings longer, or reduce the number of driver places available, neither being acceptable - as in the main events are running at a full capacity already.

A very... long discussion took place about how to rectify this problem, difficult to say what the majority view was (probably to go to 5 cell - but 4 cell would have been close).
Discussion ended by the meeting chairman asking everybody to:-
Go away and try your ideas - come back in November 2006 with proposals that are tried and tested

I was in the room as part of the representation from the UK (BRCA) and I know a few things are being tested by the touring car community here (more so we can comment on what other people have done - as it'll be down to our members to chose what we do in the UK) but if you do test things can I ask you to either let one of the people attending that meeting know your findings?

Your manufacturer or importer will know how to feed that information through or I'm sure any of the manufacturer reps on here would be only to happy to collate it - or you could email it to me ([email protected]) and i'll do so.

There isn't now many months to go to that meeting, and I can see a change happening there (as people should be speaking from known data) so its important that when we do try things out the findings are circulated.
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Old 07-17-2006, 05:18 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Phil booth was correct at the meeting though. Are we talking about the speeds being too fast for beginners or for pro racers /manufacturers? They are not too fast for pro racers. Manufacturers and drivers should take 100% of the blame when a component fails. When a motor or esc blows, the motor man should have provided a slower motor (more turns). And when the driver complains about the speed, he should modifiy his driving style to lower temperatures ( I KNOW it can be done) and allow himself to use a faster motor.

ESC manufacturers should not worry about the size of the ESC, but concentrate on its durability. So we get a bigger ESC, who cares?

Getting and keeping beginners in the hobby is another argument.
Rick is speaking right words!


Lets have a fun with a lots of a capasity and speed. After all, now everybody has an enough power and all what is needed is a skill. When we had a 12 turn rule some were complaining that ofcourse top drivers are fast because of their better battery's (voltage). Now everybody is starting from a same line.
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:07 AM   #474
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Here is an idea.... why not just scrap the whole X amount of cell thing, and just go by voltage and weight limit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This, sadly, could is one of the unfortunate outcomes. Japanese using four cells, Aussies and others possibly using five cells, and yet others using six cells.

It can't think of anything worse for the class as a whole. If a solution is to be made, it must be unified and consistent worldwide.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:21 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
You are quite wrong in that estimation. Its a 50/50 mix of "Internet Yahoos" and regular racers here. Don't get fooled by a vocal minority.

Any decison about this will be tested by manufactuers, presented to santioning bodies and then voted on by members of the santioning bodies. These are the real "Joe Racers".
Adrian lets get for real show the proof its 50/50. Your just rambling of the numbers in your head. Show us the racers how you came upwith those statistics.
I want a see a pole on 4, and 5 cell testing before any decisions. I can see 5 cell being accepted. A smoother transition needs to take place not an abrupt one.

Every Club I have been to aswell as anyone else here also will tell you .Out of all racers say 25 that show up for club racing only 1 will ever go to a worlds and 1to 5 will attend a national. So where's the 50/50. Maybe here on the boards, where the minority speech ( factory guys) and the majority where I consider my self not being pro or factory back.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:25 AM   #476
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Many privateer drivers are just as competitive as the sponsored drivers. Their goal is often to beat the sponsored driver every once in a while and maybe even become a sponsored driver themselves. To get there you need to push to the limit and to find the limit you have to push beyond it at least every once in a while.
Well, I guess in that case, 6 cells, 5 cells, 4 cells, whatever, the equipment is going to be pushed beyond the limits intentionally and distroyed. And once again it comes down to getting sponsored (which of coarse is for financial benefits). So your right back to the point I made.

Quote:
Stock and 19T are not so hard on the speedo, true, but very hard on the motors themselves. I've seen smoking examples of both Stock and 19T.
I've seen mabuchi/johnson sealed endbell motors burned up from overgearing - thats the "win at all cost" attitude, you'll never get rid of that in competition - not in 6 cell, not in 4 cell. Thats part of racing.

Even if the rules are changed to 4 cell, speed controls will be made even smaller, with less current handling capacity, motors will be wound to run on the ragged edge with 4 cells, tires will be made from softer, faster wearing compounds for more traction (using the same tire compound, a lighter car will have a smaller contact patch and less traction). So in a few short years, and a few more improvements in batteries, you'll be right back to where you started. overheating 4 cell designed products by pushing them to the limit and beyond. Like you said, you NEED to if you want to be competitive.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:38 AM   #477
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Motors will be redesigned for 4 cell use, current full stack armatures don't reach full saturation, you'll start seeing modified armatures just like stock motor armatures; short stacks, slots - less heat disapating material. 36, 45 degrees timing. Those are all legal modifications to modified motors, you think that a short stack, slotted armature 4 turn motor at 40 degrees timing wont run hot on four cells? Put on some brushes that make more power at the expense of wear and gear it to just make runtime. Do you really think you'll be using the same 6 cell based motors and speed controls?

Rick Howart, how about your take on that?
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:49 AM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieP
Many problems here as I see it. The faster you go the more reliable problems you have. With batteries approaching 4500mah and motor builders trying to use every ounce of the mah.....you have overheating problems for speedos, motors, batteries etc. Not to mention that the motors and batteries have "over-powered the cars now for years". They have fallen behind and are way too hard to drive.
Keep making bigger and better mousetraps and we will have less and less people attending in this hobby. People seem to be very concerned and aware of the costs involved to "enter this type of racing". That being said..."this type of racing" which is IFMAR based is really a "HAND-FUL" of people. The majority of the industry does not race under these conditions or to these limits.

My opinion is "racing has been hurt" because they are really no limits and no enforceable rules. Rules and limits should not only be placed on brushed motors and batteries. Cars, Speedos and could I be so naive as to think "brushless would have to follow any of the same rules"

Ernie P. I have been to many races and have met you before I think your a good Buisness man, but come on. Part of the reasons cost have gone up is the win at all cost style of racing because of manfactures like you. Paying guys on your team contingacy money is part of the problem. Without naming names you pay your drivers cash for their placement in the A at major races.
I have first hand knowledge and saw the check written out to a long time stock racer 2 grand for winning a national title. Now how is that in the best intrest of the sport. I know that one of the few companys that keeps it ( "real") difficult to get sponserd is Schumacher you have to earn it. I know they dont pay and thats why their team is small great car but no payouts. All the others pay and of course they have big teams.
Yokomo paid bonus money of 10 grand for winning the A in Mod at a nationals in Roseville 4? years ago. The proof it was for real it was a memo handed out to the drivers, I saw it and read it looking over the guys shoulder. It doesnt matter who because he quit racing because it required to much effort to stay up at that level. Sure those guys are paid but thats the problem. It isnt a hobby anymore, its like skateboarding. It started out as a kids play toy and look how that turned out.

By fully sponsering drivers in the slower classes and paying out cash you'll keep the hobby spiraling down.

I loved going racing in the 80's and 90's. All you needed was a tackle box and you were the Shiznette!



If you want mod to grow make those guys run mod! if they are accomplished at stock and earned a sponsership then that is their right to passage to run with the elite. I dont care of the payouts because I like racing to be difficult if there isnt a challenge then it wouldnt be fun. The only place I have a problem with it is in stock where the guys that are still learning the hobby.


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Old 07-17-2006, 09:59 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Scrubb
Well, I guess in that case, 6 cells, 5 cells, 4 cells, whatever, the equipment is going to be pushed beyond the limits intentionally and distroyed. And once again it comes down to getting sponsored (which of coarse is for financial benefits). So your right back to the point I made.
No, we have moved the limit and thus influenced the definition of "going over the limit" as well as what the consequence of "going over the limit" is. Moving the limit means it will get harder, at least for a while, to go over it. At least as far as the electronics are concerned which is what I was talking about.

Moreover I never said any changes we make now will be the end of it. Things will continue to be developed and this will lead to new problems that will lead to new changes in the rules. It is called evolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
I've seen mabuchi/johnson sealed endbell motors burned up from overgearing - thats the "win at all cost" attitude, you'll never get rid of that in competition - not in 6 cell, not in 4 cell. Thats part of racing.
No argument there, I fully agree. This is the main reason why technical rules will be of limited use if the goal is to cut costs too. People will continue to search for ways to be faster than they are now and spend money on things that will help them do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
Even if the rules are changed to 4 cell, speed controls will be made even smaller, with less current handling capacity, motors will be wound to run on the ragged edge with 4 cells, tires will be made from softer, faster wearing compounds for more traction (using the same tire compound, a lighter car will have a smaller contact patch and less traction). So in a few short years, and a few more improvements in batteries, you'll be right back to where you started. overheating 4 cell designed products by pushing them to the limit and beyond. Like you said, you NEED to if you want to be competitive.
True, and I never stated otherwise. But as you indicate yourself, that will happen in a few years time. Then we will have a similar discussion and go through this again. And why not. These kinds of discussions have been held in this and other classes in the past. They have been held multiple times because after a few years the same problem would resurface in some way or another, or another problem needed to be addressed.

I am not sure what others think, but I don't believe there is a silver bullet that will end all problems for all time. I DO think there are solutions to some problems that will at least work for a reasonable period of time.

Are you arguing there is no problem? Or are you arguing that we should not fix the problem because the fix will not be permanent and we will have the same problem again in a few years time? The former I can understand. In that case we simply disagree that there is a problem. The latter I don't get. Isn't it better to postpone the problems by a few years instead of letting them grow out of hand now?
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:02 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by speedxl
Ernie P. I have been to many races and have met you before I think your a good Buisness man, but come on. Part of the reasons cost have gone up is the win at all cost style of racing because of manfactures like you. Paying guys on your team contingacy money is part of the problem. Without naming names you pay your drivers cash for their placement in the A at major races.
I have first hand knowledge and saw the check written out to a long time stock racer 2 grand for winning a national title.
Yokomo paid bonus money of 10 grand for winning the A in Mod at a nationals in Roseville 4? years ago.


Hector G.
I read somewhere Billy Easton got only 2 and a half grand from AE for winning the 2WD offroad worlds, Compare to AE, yokomo pay 10 grand for a national mod title wasn't too bad.
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