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Old 07-16-2006, 05:40 PM   #451
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When people complain about the cost of touring cars....these are the same people who are buying Xray and Tamiya cars.......yes they run really well and are engineered incredibly.....but do you think they were selling as many touring cars as Associated was a few years back....NO WAY!

So the better mouse-trap that everyone is always asking for was supplied by X-ray and Tamiya....as well as the $1,000 bill that came with it. End Result....better cars but with a shorter line or pool of people to buy these cars!
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:41 PM   #452
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I will check back tomorrow....gotta get my kids ready for camp...lol

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Old 07-16-2006, 06:36 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
You are quite wrong in that estimation. Its a 50/50 mix of "Internet Yahoos" and regular racers here. Don't get fooled by a vocal minority.

Any decison about this will be tested by manufactuers, presented to santioning bodies and then voted on by members of the santioning bodies. These are the real "Joe Racers".
I think I know who those "Yahoo's" are.... Hahahahaha....


Voted on by members of the sanctioning bodies? How many people actually vote?

The average racers are the one's in the parking lots, basements of their hobby shops. The average racer doesn't travel beyond their LHS or club track.

I fully understand the how and why of 4 cell... I disagree with it because my life doesn't revolve around TC's only. Having to keep extra 4 cell packs beyond what I use for 12th scale is a waste of my money. I dislike having anything I can't use in a Stadium Truck, buggy, Monster Truck or even my motorcycles....
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:46 PM   #454
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I had not been reading the last few pages where the discussion dropped back to 4 cells, but yesterday myself and a friend had a play of running back to back 5 and 6 cell runs. Minimal difference in lap speed, but much less heat in the motor and speedies, Cars were much nicer to drive, and felt a lot more agile without the extra 70 gams of the missing cell. 5 cell definately has my thumbs up
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:13 PM   #455
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A big thumbs up to the Australian Sanctioning body to show the incentive to test some possible solutions.

From what I have heard from people who tested 5 cell Modified T.C with brushed and brushless it does sound positive.
Greatly reduced temperatures in electronics and motors (LRP speedie Ice cold after 5 mins)

I will be testing 5 cell in racing conditions this weekend.

My initial concern would be people using lower turn motors to compensate for the reduced voltage, and we'll end up using 4 turn brushed, and 2 turn brushless in no time..back to square 1.

Offset the reduced voltage with 5 cell by lowering the weight limit substantially - say 1400 grams plus timing equipment for 5 cell.

This will make the cars more agile, exciting to drive, less weight to accelerate could offset the reduced voltage = cars just as fast with less wear and tear on drivetrain, tires, electronics.

Lower cost to the racer with 5 cell packs, without requiring radically different cars...
In my opinion the only car truly suited to 4 cell is the Losi or the older saddle pack designs..other manufacturers need to go back to the drawing board to implement 4 cell successfully.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:19 PM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King-G
A big thumbs up to the Australian Sanctioning body to show the incentive to test some possible solutions.

From what I have heard from people who tested 5 cell Modified T.C with brushed and brushless it does sound positive.
Greatly reduced temperatures in electronics and motors (LRP speedie Ice cold after 5 mins)

I will be testing 5 cell in racing conditions this weekend.

My initial concern would be people using lower turn motors to compensate for the reduced voltage, and we'll end up using 4 turn brushed, and 2 turn brushless in no time..back to square 1.

Offset the reduced voltage with 5 cell by lowering the weight limit substantially - say 1400 grams plus timing equipment for 5 cell.

This will make the cars more agile, exciting to drive, less weight to accelerate could offset the reduced voltage = cars just as fast with less wear and tear on drivetrain, tires, electronics.

Lower cost to the racer with 5 cell packs, without requiring radically different cars...
In my opinion the only car truly suited to 4 cell is the Losi or the older saddle pack designs..other manufacturers need to go back to the drawing board to implement 4 cell successfully.
This, sadly, could is one of the unfortunate outcomes. Japanese using four cells, Aussies and others possibly using five cells, and yet others using six cells.

It can't think of anything worse for the class as a whole. If a solution is to be made, it must be unified and consistent worldwide.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:35 PM   #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
I doubt stock and 19 turn touring car class are having reliability or overheating issues, so I doubt having 7.2 volt rated batteries are the problem. I also doubt that privateer modified class touring car racers are having problems as they know they cannot afford to push their equipment that hard. So I assume (I may be wrong) that its the sponsored drivers that are pushing their equipment past the point of reliability and that have little or no personal or financial responsibility that are trying to win that incentive that sponsors provide to their winning drivers. Maybe reducing the size of sponsored teams and/or their incentives would minimize reliability problems?

IFMAR and ROAR don't allow cash prizes for races for a solution to this very problem. Sponsors paying out incentives for winning big races sidesteps their solution and produces a "win at all costs" attitude. Well, reliablity is obviously the cost.

Besides, how come nobody has suggested to just use the same equipment the world champion uses? He obviously didn't have any issues.

I don't care if the rules are changed or not, as long as its in the best intrest of the hobby and not for the wrong reasons. 4 cells or 6, I just like hanging out and racing with my friends.

scrubb very good point.

Rick Hohwart what do you think ?
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Old 07-16-2006, 10:28 PM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
.......and then voted on by members of the santioning bodies. These are the real "Joe Racers".
You couldn't be more wrong here....this has proven time and time again to be the wrong choice. You are saying the the 30 people that voted in the last ROAR election are the voice of "Joe Racer"? That is laughable.....I'm sorry......
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Old 07-16-2006, 10:31 PM   #459
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by no means should ifmar rush any decision but on the other hand too much procrastination might lead to such scenarios (with other countries moving on it quicker out of necessity).

i fear modified tourer the way it currently stands will take a big hit here over our summer.
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Old 07-16-2006, 10:58 PM   #460
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If it's really about "racing" and the "club" guy...how many club racer have issues burning stuff out?
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Old 07-17-2006, 01:37 AM   #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
If it's really about "racing" and the "club" guy...how many club racer have issues burning stuff out?
Over here there have been many spectacular blow ups, and we are currently in our winter months, come summer, i dread how many motors and speedies are going to let fly, it can get up in the high 30-40 degree celcius region. Currently we are only in Mid 20's.
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:00 AM   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
If it's really about "racing" and the "club" guy...how many club racer have issues burning stuff out?
I killed 2 armatures 3 weeks ago from having slightly incorrect timing/gearing. not enough to throw the wind, but enough to make the armature pretty much useless

last week i found both my 7x1s to be out of balance, and fried a speedy in practice.

this is state level racing... national at best. at the rate things are frying at the moment i'll be out of the hobby in 6 months, i simply cant afford to keep up with the rest of them.

at the moment i'm seriously contemplating selling my tourer and working on 12th scale + mini.

anyone who suggests 'gearing down' as a serious option for frying equipment needs their head read. it's not an option, if i gear down, and the guy with the slightly bigger wallet next to me on the drivers stand doesnt, he'll win... i'm not one who really cares that much about winning (it'd be nice to win, but i dont _expect_ to win)... but if it's not even a competition i dont see the point in even racing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
I fully understand the how and why of 4 cell... I disagree with it because my life doesn't revolve around TC's only. Having to keep extra 4 cell packs beyond what I use for 12th scale is a waste of my money. I dislike having anything I can't use in a Stadium Truck, buggy, Monster Truck or even my motorcycles....
with all the talk i've been hearing lately about how the current batch of cells are more than enough power in offroad, and how the worlds was won with 5 cells... what's to stop offroad from going 4 cells as well?

and even if it didnt, at the moment you have 4 and 6 cell packs, if tc changed to 4, you'd still have 4 and 6 cell packs.
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:03 AM   #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This, sadly, could is one of the unfortunate outcomes. Japanese using four cells, Aussies and others possibly using five cells, and yet others using six cells.

It can't think of anything worse for the class as a whole. If a solution is to be made, it must be unified and consistent worldwide.
I agree with you totally there Rick... if a change to the class is made, it needs to come from IFMAR themselves, so it can cascade down through the various governing bodies to the club races.
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:16 AM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
And what about off-road? We know people can be fast with fewer than 6-cells, but must fewer be mandated? Can they run 4-cell too?
.
Not sure about 4, but 5 cells works. I tried 5 cells (in competition!). Car was just on the minimum weight (1475grams), and very drivable. This was on a dirt/clay track though. Plenty of power left, maybe even still too much.
It handled differently though. more agile, but not as stable. but not faster or slower, overall.
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:36 AM   #465
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Part of any racing involves understanding and working with your motors. In electric modified this is compounded by having both gearing and timing to consider. If you run with unsuitable settings then you will blow your motors, and I am pretty sure most if not ALL drivers know this!

It is therefore somewhat strange that the NITRO drivers who get their motors fuel mix or mixture wrong can melt motors with almost the same frequency, yet I don't hear them blaming the equipment..........

Winning is finishing first, where FINISHING is the key word. Stop passing the buck and spend more time learning about your equipment and working with it!

We have been running in 30+C temps here in the UK for a while, we run a spec mod motor in one championship to level the playing field. Drivers are supplied these motors set to 0 deg timing, provided with a motor timing jig and told not to go above Xdeg since the motor current draw rises exponentially above this point and you will suffer motor problems if you ignore this advice. Those that have spent time to learn and understand are fast, very fast, and most importantly they finish! The depth of their pockets has absolutely nothing to do with it! Those that don't heed the warnings either blow a winding because they turn up the timing, or are fast in the early part of the run but they fade out badly in the last 30 secs. I would also add that running on tarmac with a track surface temp of in excess of 55degC also makes one sensitive to taking care of your tyres in an equally sensitive manner.

Drivers don't blame the motors or their gear, as they full well know and accept that it is under their control and of THEIR doing.

I find a lot of this discussion and comments seem focussed on dumbing down the technicals skills that are part of this sport, along with understanding handling and developing of car set-up skills - that are as big a part of the sport and long may it remain so. I for one do not welcome the simplifying of the sport.........if you reduce the technical skills in the sport to almost just that of "arriving and taking part" I am afraid you will probably lose people at a greater rate than they take part, it simply becomes a fad thing to do, or have done, rather than a sport to develop your skills in and be something personally challenging and satisfying.
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